Author Topic: Just when I thought I was Winning  (Read 1077 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #15 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 02:57:42 AM »
As a continuation of my last comment on the 24th August, this is what I can now add to this dilemma.
I value all opinions on this forum but PLEASE don't jump in here - refer to the original post and read from there - there are pictures!!  :)   
The photo's really give the picture - but the "story update" is as follows:- 
I pulled the head (which I REALLY didn't want to do - reassembly as we all know is time consuming and a lot of work)
I had oil on the surfaces of pistons, pistons 1 and 4 are shown, which tbh really I didn't want to see.
I had no oil track marks so to speak on both surfaces of the head gasket, (original plus cometic head gasket are shown)
I pulled piston No.1 thinking "maybe" I had installed pistons wrong way, or rings in upside down - I hadn't. Hone marks in the sleeves still prevalent. I removed and rings and confirmed ring gaps - all within spec.
As previously reported I was achieving 170,180,180,180 psi compression but filled the combustion chambers with petrol "just to see" valve seat status - levels fell to 50% equally over a period of 36 hours but that I am sure was due to evaporation.
I decided to pressurize the exhaust manifold chambers with air and made up an adapter for this purpose - I wanted to see if the chambers would hold air (40psi) or were maybe rapidly discharging air through the valve guides/tappet to sleeve running clearances, (or god forbid, somewhere else)  - they were not. I WAS seeing minor leakage around the valve seats which tbh I was not worried about as quite simple valve seats are not designed to seal "backwards" so to speak.
I removed the exhaust valve from No.1 cylinder and there was zero discernable play in the guide and valve stem. (Note valves and guides are new) 
I measured tappet (cam follower) to sleeve running clearances on No1 and at 8/10th of a thou - this was well within spec.
Note: I did not in any interrogate in any way the inlet valve side of the head - I have no symptoms giving any areas of concern here. Equally I did not disassemble the whole head, but concentrated on Cylinder No.1; for obvious reasons I was trying to keep disassembly to a minimum.

So..... unless I have missed something, (please chip in if I have), I am going to reassemble everything, finish the whole build and "work" the engine down the motorway. You will note from the history of this topic that I have run this engine since a complete rebuild for maybe a cumulative total of 1 hr - she starts well, high and low idles well, has no excessive crankcase pressure, has a clean exhaust and overall sounds very sweet.

Interestingly, had I had exhaust manifold gaskets that were perfectly sealing on No.1 cylinder - I would not be where I am today as quite simply I would have not been aware of any problem, (which I am now beginning to think doesn't exist). I believe the engine needs running - under load, to bed and settle the piston rings to bore relationship as quite simply, I cannot think of anything else to do. :confused:

Correction: My original post quotes Pistons 3 and 4 - this is incorrect - should have read 1 & 2, with 1 being closest to the timing cover.           

         
               

Offline 4129R

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: May 2014
  • Location: Norfolk, United Kingdom, not far from Hethel the home of Lotus.
  • Posts: 2,707
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #16 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 03:37:17 AM »
My thoughts are:-

1) Does it burn blue smoke on start-up when cold?

2) If so, does that stop when it warms up?

3) Put 500 miles on the engine, and see what happens.

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #17 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 04:22:50 AM »
No blue smoke (or any smoke of note) when cold or hot.   
Please refer "Dilkris Update - Rolling On her Wheels" in Member Cars and "Dilkris Bodywork 2227P - Help" in Garage.
It will be some time before I can put 500 miles on the engine I'm afraid. 

Offline 4129R

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: May 2014
  • Location: Norfolk, United Kingdom, not far from Hethel the home of Lotus.
  • Posts: 2,707
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #18 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 05:46:26 AM »
If it is any consolation, I have oil on plugs 1 and 4 on the car I am trying to put miles on.

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,888
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #19 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 07:52:07 AM »
I’m still at a loss, Dilkris. The only thing I could question you about is your assertion that the valves seal better from the combustion chamber side than the port side - not that I’m saying you’re wrong. I would think there is enough pressure from the spring to keep the valve in contact with the seat with 40 psi and so I would expect it to still seal but there is no doubt that the situations are mechanically different which could affect the sealing.

I’m tempted to put it back together and run it a see if things clear up by the time it’s broken in but I realize the importance of figuring it out while it’s apart so you don’t have to go through this exercise again with a overhead cam head. If there are no ideas about what is wrong, I don’t see that you have any other options.

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #20 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 09:56:52 AM »
 :I-agree: 

Online dakazman

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2016
  • Location: Florida
  • Posts: 4,130
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #21 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 10:24:56 AM »
  Again, I'm not a TC guy, so here goes my dumb question.
   Do these engines have windage trays?
 Dakazman

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #22 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 11:12:20 AM »
Is that like a baffle in the sump? If so I'll photograph and post tomorrow.

Offline Pfreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Apr 2016
  • Location: Orlando, Florida
  • Posts: 724
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #23 on: Saturday,September 14, 2024, 11:26:13 AM »
I rebuilt my tc a few years ago.  I ball honed the cylinder and fitted Deves rings to the Hepolite pistons which were in it.  I had the engine apart for the water pump.
Anyway, I installed the engine and used synthetic oil.

The rings never seated because of the combination of synthetic oil I used right after the rebuild and Deves rings, which had a very weak oil control ring spring.

You could see oil on top of the pistons when the plugs were pulled.  It used a lot of oil.

So, I pulled the engine, ball honed the cylinders again and installed the pistons with QED piston rings.  I broke in the engine with conventional break in oil.  About 500 miles.

It  now uses about a quart of oil now every 2000 miles or so.  There is no oil on top of the pistons.

I don't know if this is your problem, but it seems similar to my experience.

I would run the engine more with brake in oil to see if the oil consumption improves.  Mine did not, so I had to remove the engine.

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #24 on: Monday,September 16, 2024, 02:07:39 AM »
Thankyou 4129R, BDA, dakazman and Pfreen for adding your thoughts - I am not clever enough with this platform to quote and comment on individual comments so I answer and comment to them altogether below:-

The sump has a baffle, (windage tray in your language?), this being to seemingly restrict oil surge and starvation to the oil pump in corners. Note the circular "polishing" that you see is caused by the spring loaded oil intake gauze, which makes contact with the sump upon fitment.   
The subject of piston ring "type" and make I had not considered and as such I went through my records to see where I bought these from, (sorry at 71 you forget stuff... :confused:). The rings came complete with the pistons, (obviously), QED, and were bought from Paul Matty Sports Cars in the UK so I believe I have no reason to doubt quality.
Engine oil type was mentioned, this maybe is a contentious issue, but I ran the engine on a non-synthetic, 20/50 multigrade - would an alternative oil have been considered preferable?
Oil consumption was mentioned - but running only low and high idle for maybe 20 mins at a time, I cannot quantify oil burn.

I am seriously leaning toward "there is no problem" and putting the engine back together - hopefully she will sort herself out when under load.  :holdurbreath:
       

Online dakazman

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2016
  • Location: Florida
  • Posts: 4,130
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #25 on: Monday,September 16, 2024, 04:44:05 AM »
  Thanks Dilkis ,
 So that looks to be a baffle, not a windage tray.  I’ll take it that tc do not have one then.
It may be beneficial with your new pistons . Did the manufacturer have any recommendations?
I’m sure some members will have some thoughts about its use in a TC.
Dakazman

 

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #26 on: Monday,September 16, 2024, 08:25:11 AM »
I learn something everyday dakazman (thankyou) and I can confirm that the TC engine does not have a windage tray - I have just Googled them and can well understand the benefit.
I am unsighted as to whether anybody has "retro fitted" one to a twin cam, or indeed, whether with such a deep sump that the ford block has, (by modern day engine standards anyway), if they would be of any benefit.
I'm sure other members will have thoughts on this. 
     

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,888
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #27 on: Monday,September 16, 2024, 09:10:29 AM »
I doubt a windage tray would be worth it for a street motor. Usually they (with "scrapers") are used for racing engines to help keep the oil from frothing. Burton doesn't even list them for the Twin Cam.

Offline Pfreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Apr 2016
  • Location: Orlando, Florida
  • Posts: 724
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday,September 17, 2024, 02:19:58 AM »
That slosh plate, or whatever it is called is stock twincam. 

I installed a weld in baffle kit which RD Enterprises (p/n 26RE6083BK) sells and Kelvedon in England sells.

It seems to work fine.

Offline Dilkris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Oct 2017
  • Location: Shrewsbury (UK)
  • Posts: 613
Re: Just when I thought I was Winning
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday,September 17, 2024, 03:30:49 AM »
I installed a weld in baffle kit which RD Enterprises (p/n 26RE6083BK) sells and Kelvedon in England sells.

I cannot find reference or pictures of this - can you possibly provide?
Also - why did you deem it necessary to fit them/it? Were you having problems similar to myself?