Author Topic: Correcting fast idle  (Read 2017 times)

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Offline kiwiokie

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Correcting fast idle
« on: Friday,May 08, 2020, 06:55:33 PM »
Hi folks, I have not posted in ages - just been enjoying some trouble-free motoring.  A couple of things I had meant to look into were difficulty in starting when the engine is cold (requires 3 or 4 long spurts of cranking even with choke pulled out) and a fast idle (1800-2000 rpm) even when the car is warmed up and the choke fully in. 

The car was restored by the previous owner and I have not had any experience with British cars before so I have been reluctant to dive into it.  The car in question is a ‘73 Europa TCS with Stromberg and I understand it is running a Pertronix ignition and coil.  Spark plug wires look good.  Car has only done less than 10,000 miles since rebuild.

I started by removing the spark plugs and found they were Champion RN9YC’s whereas the owners manual recommends N7Y’s and I had read on this site that NGK BPR6ES plugs were preferred.  The plugs looked like the cylinders were running lean.  I bought a set, gapped to 0.025” and installed and it was even more difficult to start.  I then read on the Petronix site that they suggest increasing the gap by 0.005” which I did.  Doing more reading and inspection of the carbs I found the idle trimming adjustment screws were wide open so I screwed these in and with a combination of the two changes it started and seemed to run better.

I was not sure if the tach was reading accurately so using an external tach I verified that the idle is indeed 1800-2000 rpm when warmed up.  There is a 1mm gap on the choke screw so I can see it is not engaged.  Before I go any further I just wanted to get some advice and make sure I was planning the correct steps.

From what I have read to do a thorough set up I need to do the following:
1.  Check the valve clearances
2.  Check the static timing of 5 BTDC
3.  Check the timing at 3000 rpm of not more than 38 BTDC
4.  Only then adjust the idle speed of the carbs

I guess the issue could also be stuck mechanical advance on the distributor so maybe that should be step 0?  I have a Colortune test kit but from what I have read there is no mixture adjustment on these carbs as standard unless adjustable needles have been installed which I am unsure about.

Any help would be appreciated.  Cheers, John



Offline jbcollier

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 07:04:45 AM »
First, we are always glad to welcome another member!  Congratulations on choosing a car that's pleasures are equally matched by it fascinating design.

It's an unknown car to you so it is a good idea to give it a thorough going over.  BUT, you could start by simply turning the idle speed down.  First check that there is slack in the throttle cable when it is released.  If so, take careful note of the idle speed screw's position on each carb.  To start, turn each screw EXACTLY one 1/2 turn.  Help?  Good.  If not, you may have other issues with the carbs/synchronizing/manifolding.

We can walk you through a complete tune-up and/or carb overhaul as needed.  The first thing I would recommend is the purchase of a good carb synchronizer.  My preference is for this type:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173869307112

as it does not affect the idle when you use it.  There are various angle adapters which are handy in the tight quarters of the Europa engine bay.  Weber, Dellorto, Porsche and air cooled VW shops carry them.

Offline BDA

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #2 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 08:08:05 AM »
 :Welcome: kiwiokie!

I love the color  ;D!!

+1 on JB's recommendation, especially the flow meter. They are MUCH better than the ubiquitous Unisyn.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #3 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 08:50:52 AM »
Hi John,

"trouble free motoring" ??  Are you sure this is a Lotus you're talking about ?  :)

Ok, joking aside let me start by saying I know very little about Strombergs and the last car I had with them was well over 20yrs ago so you'll know to take my comments as "guesses" rather than super accurate knowledge.

First the plugs - the N9 is a hotter plug than the N7 series and the N7 is better for an engine where you're revving harder. I'd expect the N7 to soot up quicker than the N9 if you do a lot of commuting, low speed stuff, etc.  Referring to Miles Wilkins' book, he says the N9 was standard with your engine & the N7 for "sustained high speeds". However he later adds that N7's can also be used if you have electronic ignition modules fitted which give a higher voltage/hotter spark.   

Next, John's suggestion of checking the idle screw position and slack in the cable are the first port of call, it may be as simple as that !

If that doesn't work one thing you can do without any dismantling is to check the timing at idle. There's a lot of detail in Miles Wilkins book but in case you don't have it, here is the data for the Federal Stromberg, 41225A distributor with the vacuum retard fitted;

Below 2000rpm, 5deg, static timing & no advance
2500rpm : 7.5
3000rpm : 9.5
3500rpm : 12.0
4000rpm : 14.3
4500rpm : 16.5
5000rpm : 19.0 max advance

Some of those numbers look academic to me, I couldn't tell that sort of accuracy from a timing light on the engine !  But it should give you an idea where you are.

If the previous owner had removed the vac. retard and/or fitted the UK 40953 distributor, the numbers will be a lot different. NB - this shouldn't be on your car as exported, but Lotus owners are known to fiddle with stuff......

Below 1000rpm, 9deg, static timing & no advance
1000rpm : 14.6
1500rpm : 19.5
2000rpm : 25.0
2500rpm : 25.8
3000rpm : 26.8
3500rpm : 27.6
4000rpm : 28.5
4500rpm : 29.5
5000rpm : 30.5
5500rpm : 31.5
6000rpm : 32.0
6500rpm : 33.0 max advance

Final comment from Miles' book;  he explains the development of the Federal Strombergs and the differences from the UK versions. The advance curves were modified to give a quicker warm up and pass the emission tests. The downside was that 19 deg isn't enough to get the best from the engine and he does mention having seen examples where the static timing has been raised to 14-15 deg to give a max 29 deg advance on the 41225A and get it closer to the UK spec engine. 

In conclusion, assuming all parts are working properly (and they should be, that engine looks amazing) then my checks would be in order of least work  ;)

Ignition is easy - check what you've got compared with those ranges above - timing light and running engine is all you need. Have a look at the distributor and see if the vac retard has been removed or the distributor changed for the UK spec, you'll need a mirror (old school)  or ideally one of those USB fibre optic leads going to a laptop which makes it easy to read numbers.

This should give you an idea if the timing is right/wrong/modified. Also if it doesn't change with revs, the advance could be sticking as you mention.

Next would be carbs and if we've still got a high idle after checking the adjuster, then move to see if the linkage is allowing both carbs to close properly. 

After that we're into more work.

I'm very hazy on the mechanics of this with your carbs but my guess would be to remove the air filter box and check the air flows through both. which would show if they are balanced properly on the idle adjustment and linkage. The flowmeter like John suggests is ideal for this.  As an outside chance maybe look for air leaks from the manifolds, air box, etc.

Valve clearances timing would be my last check, I'd do the cam timings first but I'd concentrate on ignition/fuel then cams.

Finally, I'm going to spend your money (I'm good at spending other folks. money :)  ).  Firstly I'd recommend Miles Wilkins book on the TC engine. It's mostly about rebuilds but has loads of technical details on all the variants and also explains where the official period Manual has errors.  Well worth the money.

If you have to tinker with carbs then a device to measure air flow is very helpful. Colortunes are good (I have them) but air flow shows how the individual carbs are passing fuel/air into the engine and makes them very easy to balance. I have the one in John's link and it's worth it's weight in gold !

Brian

Offline SENC

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #4 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 05:07:18 PM »
First, I don't have a Europa but an Elan with Strombergs, so take this with a grain of salt - but I'm surprised at the low static advance on timing.  My bet is the throttle was increased because the car wouldn't hold idle at that timing (plus either a lean or rich condition).  I'd advance a bit and see where that lets you drop the idle.

Depending on what you find, you'll have get some ideas on rich or lean.  Have you filled your dampers?  Checked your diaphragms? Checked your floats?  The good news is that these are quite simple carbs to work on.  Adjustment is limited (primarily through needle/jet change) so not much to go wrong.

Offline kiwiokie

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 06:12:31 PM »
Thanks guys, I will check the timing.  I expect SENC is right that the idle was increased as it would not hold sub-1,000 rpm.  I have that model synchronizer so will check the carb balance too.  Sounds like I should go back to the RN9YC’s since I mostly use it for short commutes?

Offline SENC

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #6 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 07:38:36 PM »
The NGK 6 should be similar to the Champion 9, I think I recall.

Offline BDA

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #7 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 08:21:48 PM »
These charts might be helpful. I've been using NGK and like them.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #8 on: Saturday,May 09, 2020, 10:06:51 PM »
Thanks for posting the comparison charts BDA, I hadn't seen the comparison between manufacturers grades.  I knew some of the numbering but not a breakdown as good as that.

Now all I need to do is to copy them and next time I'm tinkering with plug grades, remember where I saved them !

Brian

Offline kiwiokie

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #9 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 04:35:03 AM »
Interesting, I did not know the heat ranges differed by manufacturer.  Thanks for the charts!

Offline BDA

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #10 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 08:22:33 AM »
If you're interested in comparing heat ranges, I'd advise that you try and find others that might or might not corroborate the one I posted. I don't remember where I got it. It's not that I don't believe it but finding another source that agrees (or maybe a more authoritative source) is a good practice. You can search for something like spark plug heat range comparison.

Offline kiwiokie

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #11 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 03:10:46 PM »
I turned each idle screw CCW half a turn and the idle dropped a little.  I gave it a another 1/4 turn and was able to get the idle down to 1500 rpm but it is a little rough.  One thing I noticed was the LH idle screw was loose as I could turn it with my fingers despite there being a spring to tighten against.  I pulled gently on the throttle spindle and it moved back against the idle screw and the revs dropped further.  It seems the throttle spindle connection between the carbs has been tightened with the LH carb not sitting flat against the idle adjustment screw.  I assume I need to just loosen the center concertina like clamps and then retighten holding the throttle against the adjustment screw?  I went to check the timing but the timing marks are so faded I could not read anything.  Painted them white, will scrub off excess, then hopefully I can see where I am at.

Offline SENC

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #12 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 03:27:34 PM »
If you haven't found it yet  google buckeye triumph stromberg and you'll find a great resource.  It is worth reading through the disassembly, reassembly and setup even if you'd never do that yourself (why not?) as it will be helpful in how everything works together.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #13 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 04:05:23 PM »
Yup, you can just loosen the connecting link.  Tighten it after you sync the carbs at idle.

One carb has a manifold vacuum outlet underneath the throttles.  Make sure that is plugged.

Offline surfguitar58

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Re: Correcting fast idle
« Reply #14 on: Sunday,May 10, 2020, 07:39:48 PM »
These charts might be helpful. I've been using NGK and like them.

BDA, do you have a .pdf version of those charts you could post?
t
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