Author Topic: too much STRESS  (Read 4567 times)

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Offline ron parola

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too much STRESS
« on: Sunday,October 26, 2014, 04:10:37 PM »
ALL these years I thought the Europa's were made out of fiberglass, but since stripping my '72 for paint I've found out otherwise. Apparently they are made of stress cracks and polyester resin, MAYBE with some glass cloth thrown in. This car seems never to have been repainted except for the left front headlamp area (which is a different issue) and it seems the "factory" used paint to hold the cars together and align both the bonnet and boot lids. UNDER the VERY thick red paint is a layer of soft gray primer (thick also) then a yellow or beige TOUGH high build primer near any edges or body joints, then a whiteish or gray HARD gell coat. The gell coat which is VERY brittle ranges in thickness from nill to about an 1/8in. Whatever they saved in glass cost they lost in paint and paint remediation, yes there was filler under all the primers.  The point of this moaning is what's to be done with the cracks, some areas appear to be wood grained, or alligator skin; down to the glass so just digging out and filling isn't feasible. At the base of the windscreen, the wiper panel as it were, off to the glove box side lots of little starbursts apparently from inside out !? Not from wheel throwing up stones this is from the inside of the car, and they are in the fiberglass, factory flaw?  That area at least is small enough to veil cloth . At least it isn't made of compressed RUST as were my Italian cars Cheers rp   

Offline BDA

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #1 on: Sunday,October 26, 2014, 04:51:42 PM »
Lotus quality control was pretty slack - especially when it came to fitting boots, bonnets, and doors. Some would fit flush but most didn't seem to. I think part of the problem was that the glass was so thin and then the mounting points were sometimes off.

I've heard of bad glass on Europas but usually it's because of a PO that screwed it up. If you are seeing glass cloth, that was done by a PO and not Lotus. They used mat and I would guess it was chopped mat sprayed into the mold. Except where you know you need the strength (no place comes to mind), I advise against using cloth. It's harder to work with and if it is on an exposed surface, the weave will bleed through the paint regardless of what you do.

I'm not expert so somebody may come up with a better/approved method, but were I in your shoes, I would grind out as much of the crack or star as I could. I would then fill it with either filler made from chopped mat or glass balls and resin and sand flat. If grinding out the crack or star goes through to the other side, I would try to back that up with glass mat. I would then cover the area - or maybe even the whole car with gauze (sometimes called veil) and sand flat to finish before priming - say 600 grit wet/dry. Of course thin applications of filler to get it flat are acceptable.

I put gauze on my doors, boot, and bonnet and they were what I considered almost ready for primer. The rest of the car was pretty flat too when I took it to the paint shop but the paint shop seemed to cover the whole car with some sort of filler. I think that because some of it was evident in a drain hole under the rear of the car. I figure if they put it where you couldn't see it very well, they probably put it everywhere. I relate that only to explain that at least someone thought it needed more than a final sanding before priming and painting, which may prove my ignorance. Maybe we can get others to chime in.

Good luck and don't forget to post pictures of your progress!

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #2 on: Monday,October 27, 2014, 12:08:35 AM »
I guess if you ask 20 people this question then you'll get 20 answers, it's just one of those things.  Personally I also use light surface tissue (sometimes called veil/gauze/etc) with resin for 99% of the ones I've done. On very rare occasions when I've thought the panel has been made too thin I've built up on the reverse side with chopped strand matt (CSM) but normal gel coat cracking is just tissue. If I'm careless grinding out cracks then I may need a single layer of CSM before finishing with tissue and of course any through-panel fractures will need CSM as well.

For the areas you've called "wood grain" I would lightly grind away the gel coat over the whole area and re-finish. I had a similar area over one front wheel arch, either from an accident or someone sitting on it no doubt. It's a big job but more practical than trying to sort out individual lines or even worse, just spraying over with primer filler - they will just re-appear 6 months down the line if it's not done thoroughly.

I've attached a pdf file which consists of some notes made from a series of articles in a UK Classic car magazine during their restoration of a Lotus Elan. IIRC the source of the detail was Miles Wilkins, the guy who wrote the restoration guide for Fibreglass which sells for a small fortune on Ebay and is well respected in this field.   It's well worth a read even if the pictures aren't so good (the originals were B/W newsprint and haven't scanned well)

Brian

Edit to add - after repairs I think most folks use polyester spray filler to level off the surfaces. It sounds a bodge but in practice it ends up being a very, very thin layer over the car and in my experience is the best way to prevent sinkage or repairs showing up one or two years later.  Lotus used the same methods and I think that will be the beige layer you found.
« Last Edit: Monday,October 27, 2014, 12:13:30 AM by EuropaTC »

Offline ron parola

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #3 on: Monday,October 27, 2014, 03:27:31 PM »
Well thanks gents; agrinding and aglassing I shall go. Have it ALMOST stripped but this weekends project will be TRYING to remove the doors. I have been spraying them for months with penetrating oil through little holes I drilled in the doors, but I feel to no avail. I'm guessing I'll be cutting them off, damn you Colin! Cheers rp   

Offline BDA

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #4 on: Monday,October 27, 2014, 06:09:59 PM »
It's not uncommon to have to cut the hinge pings in the doors. Some use a sawsall. I just got a hack saw blade handle (not the saw but a handle for the blade). The bottom is dirlled and tapped (I think it is 1/4 NC) and you can use that to turn it to get it loose and pull out the bottom piece after you saw it.

You should either replace it with one of r.d. enterprises stainless steel hinge pin sets (I have one if you're interested) or Banks' brass hinge kit. I used Banks' kit and recommend it but for some, it may be just as easy or easier to use the standard setup (but with stainless steel instead of carbon steel.

Good luck and we're still waiting for pictures!  ;D

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #5 on: Monday,October 27, 2014, 11:11:58 PM »
If the door hinge assembly is the original all mild steel affair then don't waste your time but just cut the door hinge pins. As BDA says, the simplest way is for a hacksaw blade going between door & body at top & bottom. I think I did the bottom first ?

If you want to persevere with the penetrating oil then you can get some access through the front wheel arches to the top of the pin. Depending how much pin is showing  you might just be able to get a self-grip wrench on there and try to twist it in the body bushes, but  mine was stuck with rust. It's a long time ago now so my memory is hazy but I think I had to cut the top off one pin as well to drive it out without potentially damaging the bodywork ?

A common problem and there are better ways for the replacement these days.

Brian

Offline ron parola

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday,October 28, 2014, 03:22:24 PM »
Pix this weekend, AFTER I drown my tears trying to get the doors off, mmmm, IPA will be in order rp

Offline ron parola

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,October 28, 2014, 03:25:39 PM »
Also thinking of removing frt and rear marker lamps, did that to my S1 XJ6; no politzi noticed, AND I've got a brake and lamp license anyway; free ride!  Any thoughts one way or the other? rp

Offline BDA

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday,October 28, 2014, 06:26:39 PM »
I never minded the side marker lights, but then I may be weird since I even like the wart turn signals on the front! In NC, I've been grandfathered so I never have to go to be inspected (when I first got the car on the road, I did and it was comical to see a semi-wrench at the inspection station try to drive it with work boots on!). If you're in a similar situation - or think you can get away with it - go for it.

Offline ron parola

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,October 29, 2014, 01:29:18 PM »
I like the frt turn signals, sort of reminds me of a frogeye sprite, How about sanding off ALL the gell coat, clear coating car and running neons inside.... nice warm glow!  Or not rp

Offline blasterdad

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,October 29, 2014, 01:41:18 PM »
Also thinking of removing frt and rear marker lamps, did that to my S1 XJ6; no politzi noticed, AND I've got a brake and lamp license anyway; free ride!  Any thoughts one way or the other? rp

Mine were removed by a PO, in Michigan there is no inspection, just plate it & go... Worse thing that could happen is getting a ticket by a cop with a keen eye & nothing better to do.  C:-)

Offline lahi

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #11 on: Monday,November 04, 2019, 05:03:35 AM »
I guess if you ask 20 people this question then you'll get 20 answers, it's just one of those things.  Personally I also use light surface tissue (sometimes called veil/gauze/etc) with resin for 99% of the ones I've done. On very rare occasions when I've thought the panel has been made too thin I've built up on the reverse side with chopped strand matt (CSM) but normal gel coat cracking is just tissue. If I'm careless grinding out cracks then I may need a single layer of CSM before finishing with tissue and of course any through-panel fractures will need CSM as well.

For the areas you've called "wood grain" I would lightly grind away the gel coat over the whole area and re-finish. I had a similar area over one front wheel arch, either from an accident or someone sitting on it no doubt. It's a big job but more practical than trying to sort out individual lines or even worse, just spraying over with primer filler - they will just re-appear 6 months down the line if it's not done thoroughly.

I've attached a pdf file which consists of some notes made from a series of articles in a UK Classic car magazine during their restoration of a Lotus Elan. IIRC the source of the detail was Miles Wilkins, the guy who wrote the restoration guide for Fibreglass which sells for a small fortune on Ebay and is well respected in this field.   It's well worth a read even if the pictures aren't so good (the originals were B/W newsprint and haven't scanned well)

Brian

Edit to add - after repairs I think most folks use polyester spray filler to level off the surfaces. It sounds a bodge but in practice it ends up being a very, very thin layer over the car and in my experience is the best way to prevent sinkage or repairs showing up one or two years later.  Lotus used the same methods and I think that will be the beige layer you found.

Lifting this thread after 5 years  :newhere:

About the cracks then. I have a lot of stress cracks in my gelcoat and stripping the paint right now.
I'm a bit interested in the idea of a surface tissue and I wonder, do i still need to grind the stress cracks away (there's a LOT of them...) or can I just put the surface tissue over the existing cracks?

Offline BDA

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #12 on: Monday,November 04, 2019, 06:33:16 AM »
 :Welcome: lahi!

I'm sorry I can't really help you with your gel coat issue. I thought I remembered reading some posts suggesting grinding out the cracks was a bad idea but I couldn't find it and I can't really come up with a reason why it would be bad. I skimmed part of the article EuropaTC posted (from the same post you quoted him from) and it recommends grinding out the cracks and filling them. I think unless someone comes up with a better idea, you should follow EuropaTC's article.

Please keep us updated on your progress and I should mention, we LOVE pictures!

Offline dakazman

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #13 on: Monday,November 04, 2019, 03:53:49 PM »
  Hello Ron, many have given you excellent advice , remove all glass cloth . It will bleed thru to the final finish. The veil over the entire car is advisable. As for the stress cracks, cut and bevel the entire crack on both sides and re-glass with mat. Repair specs are in the workshop manual. aluminum Tape is your friend, apply it to the underside of a fresh cutout, glass the topside and after dry remove tape and finish the repair to the other side. If you have a crack on the bottom of a panel , place the wet Matt glass on heavy plastic and tape to smooth out the area.
  After I finished painting my car the po removal and repair with glass cloth and bondo to the front turn indicators bleed thru with a nice weave pattern in the finish after a year.
  As said previously , we love pics!
Dakazman

Offline dakazman

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Re: too much STRESS
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday,November 05, 2019, 05:05:48 AM »
   One more thing about fiberglass repair is to know your , original level. Yes it’s a basic idea , but enough can’t be said about it. Protect it with a contrast agent, after sanding, lightly spray primer around the outer perimeter of a ready to layup area. After the layup is dry sand it down to the primed area and a little undercut. 
  After primer is applied use 3m contrast  agent and block sand until all agent is removed without removing all the primer, lol  Hi and lows , and defects will easily show.

  It’s a technique not a rule. As stated before, ask 50 people!
Dakazman