Author Topic: Rubber Bushes ?  (Read 779 times)

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Offline EuropaTC

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Rubber Bushes ?
« on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 09:28:51 AM »
Hi folks,

Ok, this isn't Europa specific and it's actually some work I've been doing on the Elan this weekend, but it could equally apply to the Europa if you've moved from OEM suspension parts.

Several years ago I uprated the Elan's suspension and the front dampers came with stiffer new mounting bushes in an Orange/Red colour. I fitted these and thought no more about it until recently when I decided that as I hadn't driven the Elan this year, I'd take some time to freshen it up before winter.

I was very surprised to find the damper bushes completely disintegrated, almost in powder form. The design has upper/lower bushes, similar to the TR6 IIRC, and the car's weight rests on the lower of these bushes. When I fitted them I thought they might either be polyurethane or some sort of synthetic rubber because they didn't look anything like the black rubber originals and were much harder.

It's pretty obvious that the material isn't up to the job, the ones under load have simply crushed and the upper ones, which only take load when the suspension is on droop, have cracked. If you try to flex them, they snap, not like any rubber I've seen. 

I've just replaced all 4 bushes with plain old rubber ones but thought it worth posting because I'd guess most folks are like me, fit something you think is better and the reality isn't what you were hoping for.....

Brian

Edit to add - the 1st image is what I found when I jacked the car up, the second is the uprated bushes removed and compared with a standard rubber replacement and the third one shows just how badly those orange bushes have fared over what amounts to barely a few thousand miles.
« Last Edit: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 09:32:43 AM by EuropaTC »

Offline TurboFource

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #1 on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 09:34:59 AM »
Were they chinesium?
The more I do the more I find I need to do....remember your ABC’s …anything but chinesium!

Offline BDA

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 11:13:29 AM »
A buddy of mine had a similar experience with polyurethane bushings he got for his Europa. I'm unclear if he got them from Autobush or Banks.

I was working on my rear suspension and was amazed at how flexible the stock radius arm bushings were! I considered getting polyurethane replacements but decided against them. After hearing your story and my buddy's, I'm more confident that they aren't the solution. I'm going to have some ball-joint replacements made like Serge did for his car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Os40ns8NiI). I'm thinking they will allow me to use less rear toe in.

Offline 314159td

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #3 on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 07:00:55 PM »
I never had a ton of trust in polyurethane bushings, it seems like they would be very easy to mess up chemically. Might as well use a durable plastic like delrin or replace with some kind of universal/ball joint where applicable if the rubber is too flexible for your taste.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #4 on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 08:28:41 PM »
I've seen a couple of reports about AVO dampers being delivered with orange poly bushes that disintegrated quickly. I think JB had the same issue?

Apparently, AVO replaced them with black bushes and the problem went away. I can't see this is related to the colour, but maybe it is the chemistry or a bad batch of something.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #5 on: Sunday,October 20, 2024, 10:09:24 PM »
Were they chinesium?
:) 
To be honest I have no idea but they came from a known Lotus specialist.  I won't name them here because I don't consider it their fault, so it's not fair to mark their reputation.

I've seen a couple of reports about AVO dampers being delivered with orange poly bushes that disintegrated quickly. I think JB had the same issue?
Apparently, AVO replaced them with black bushes and the problem went away. I can't see this is related to the colour, but maybe it is the chemistry or a bad batch of something.

That could be the case here Gavin, these are adjustable AVO dampers and these bushes were fitted when I got them.

I don't know when these failed and even though I'm no driving god I think I'd have picked up the clonking from the front over our roads.   I normally run through the car every spring which would pick this up but the last 2-3 years I've not used it much and apart from moving in/out occasionally it's been standing under sheets in the garage.  So I think they've collapsed under static load. When I first saw it I thought "mice !!" because there were plastic crumbs all over the damper/spring top and those critturs seem to eat anything. But with the upper bushes intact (although cracking) I now reckon it's just a material degradation, just not up to the job.

Brian
« Last Edit: Monday,October 21, 2024, 12:44:52 PM by EuropaTC »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #6 on: Monday,October 21, 2024, 06:01:04 AM »
AVO has a rod end option for its shocks.  I switched to those and no issues since.

Offline Bainford

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #7 on: Monday,October 21, 2024, 09:59:10 AM »
I've seen this type of material degradation numerous times, though not necessarily in suspension bushings. It seems that plasticised rubbers (or rubberised plastics, not sure how that works) have a definite shelf life, and once that time is reached, they just fall apart. There is a brand of safety work-boot that is popular in this area with a sole that is as tough and resilient as a car tire, until it reaches ten years old, at which point, worn or not, it will just fall to bits while sitting on the floor. I've seen many other instances of this phenomenon, including the tires of the model cars I build, which when decades old will either harden and crumble, or leach out an oily substance (the plasticiser), just sitting on the shelf. The problem, at least in terms of very short shelf life,  seems prevalent to modern-day products, suggesting the use of a new breed of inexpensive, high-performing materials that don't have longevity. Pretty much like everything these days, it seems.

Relative to our cars, I have had a pair of Stromberg diaphragms fall apart when fitted to the carbs. The carbs had been rebuilt and then sat on the shelf for twelve years. In diagnosing why they wouldn't work when fitted, I found both diaphragms decomposed and falling apart. Clearly an inferior copy of the product, and I am pretty sure they perished in this same manner.

It's something to keep in mind with all plasticky rubbery bits, especially in this day of reproduction parts where inexpensive and untested materials are employed that work in the short term, but don't have the stamina to go the distance.
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Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #8 on: Monday,October 21, 2024, 01:04:07 PM »
I've seen this type of material degradation numerous times, though not necessarily in suspension bushings. It seems that plasticised rubbers (or rubberised plastics, not sure how that works) have a definite shelf life, and once that time is reached, they just fall apart. There is a brand of safety work-boot that is popular in this area with a sole that is as tough and resilient as a car tire, until it reaches ten years old, at which point, worn or not, it will just fall to bits while sitting on the floor.

That's scary when you think about it, something just falling apart under zero load. I think these failed whilst the car was sitting in the garage because there were red/orange crumbs all over the springs and I think if I'd driven the car even round the block, these would have fallen or been blown away.  However I can't prove that but it would tie in with your observations.

It's made me re-think quite a lot about the performance mods you get these days - things like poly bushes and at one point I remember wondering about a polyurethane radius arm mounting.  Until now I would have said these were fit'n'forget but having seen these failures it has shaken my faith a bit. I'd have no idea from simply looking if the material supplied was top notch or second rate and liable to fail drastically. The one thing you can say about rubber or a spherical joint is that the failure mechanism is predictable and usually gradually rather than "overnight".

Offline Kendo

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #9 on: Monday,October 21, 2024, 01:17:36 PM »
Have you checked with your supplier to see if this became known some time after you bought the parts? Maybe they know what happened and have a solution.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #10 on: Monday,October 21, 2024, 10:21:50 PM »
Have you checked with your supplier to see if this became known some time after you bought the parts? Maybe they know what happened and have a solution.
No, I haven't gone back to them for a couple of reasons.

Firstly I did this change several years ago so for all concerned it's water under the bridge. Secondly I decided to revert to OEM rubber bushes because although I know from experience the lower bush (under load) will take a set with time and I'll no doubt have to nip up the damper mounts, they've never failed catastrophically before in over 45yrs ownership. (minus 8? or so for this mod  ;)  )

So it wouldn't matter really, I won't fit anything like this again even if they were free issue.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday,October 23, 2024, 07:09:17 AM »
Stromberg diaphragm failure is usually due to either cheap, nasty, re-pop diaphragms; or, most commonly, using engine oil in the dampers.

Offline TurboFource

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday,October 23, 2024, 02:04:56 PM »
Manual says to use engine oil …. What should be used ?
The more I do the more I find I need to do....remember your ABC’s …anything but chinesium!

Offline Bainford

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday,October 23, 2024, 04:05:10 PM »
Yeah, 20W-50, actually. That seems very heavy for damper oil. On a cold day that stuff is nearly molasses.
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

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Offline Kendo

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Re: Rubber Bushes ?
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday,October 23, 2024, 05:52:28 PM »
Generally automatic transmission fluid is recommended. That is what I use in my Strombergs, and used in my old 240Z’s Hitachis, too.