Author Topic: Searching for that illusive gem…  (Read 663 times)

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Offline Dreamer

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Searching for that illusive gem…
« on: Tuesday,July 02, 2024, 01:37:13 PM »
The wife worked in the automotive/motorcycle industry for over 45 years. She’s held almost every position within a dealership you can imagine. So, she has made lots of contacts and heard many stories over the decades. Months ago she was told of a long forgotten one owner TCS that had come out of storage.
The story is that the original owners ordered the car and picked it up at the factory in Hethel, Norfolk. Drove around England and then had it shipped to Canada. After years of driving and dong “make do” repairs the car was in need of attention. The husband decided to do a complete restoration. It took years and at some point he became unwell. He never got back to finish the car. He was later put in a home and the car just sat. At some point the wife had a debt she could not pay. The Europa, which had been in a garage up until this time was used as payment. The new custodian was into muscle cars but was very intrigued by this little English sports car he’d never heard of. Unfortunately for the car it was left under a tarp in an impound yard for a year or more. The tarp didn’t cover everything and the car endured harsh winter snows, ice and then pelting rain storms. Inter mixed with blister hot, humid days and you get the picture.
It took my wife a short time to track down this person but several months before we found out where it was stashed. We went to see it today. The custodian had shown us an internet image of a JPS and said that is what he had. I tried to temper my wife’s enthusiasm stating it was probably just a black TCS with some gold pin stripping. I was expecting and run down, rusted mess half taken apart.
Oh, WOW! And not in a good way. The custodian claims the underside has been completely rebuilt from what he remembers when he got underneath it when he first took possession. After many questions and looking at what I could see from above I’d say it was a paint can refurb. It’s quite possible that many new parts and work was done to the running gear and chassis but it was all covered up by red and black paint.
The body had been repainted gloss black and I doubt it was driven much if any after the paint job. However, the prep work was inferior and it’s bubbling and lifting in large areas. The masking was terrible as well. The front bumper is in place but no signs of the rear.
The custodian says he hooked up the battery and sprayed the carbs with fuel to see if it would fire. It rolled over easily and did catch once or twice. He didn’t want to trust the fuel in the tanks but he is sure it would run once the fuel system was flushed and the carbs gone over. He doesn’t know if it’s a four or five speed and it was hard to tell looking at the worn shift knob. I didn’t crawl under to look at the trans.
The engine is said to have been completely rebuilt but all I can tell from looking is that the head has been off and there is a lot of liquid gasket oozing out from between the head and block as well as other joints. The canister is missing as is the intake manifold where the connector pipes would have gone. This means the intake plenum doesn’t line up with the air filter connector.
I could tell with each new discovery the wife’s heart sank deeper. She had it built up in her head that this was that magic one, “The Find”, that one in the barn that you read about but never locate yourself.
The last straw for her was when she opened the door to see the state of the interior. I’ll let the photos speak for themselves. There are five boxes of parts and supposedly a new (or refinished) wood dash that we did not get to see as the custodian has yet to pick them up after all this time. All the paperwork including Ontario ownership is also MIA. So I have no idea of mileage or true history or anything else.
Bottom line is, it’s a frame off restoration for a true enthusiast or someone with deep pockets. On the other hand it’s a parts car or strip down for someone looking to make some money.
Question is, what’s it true value, as is where is?
Sorry for the poor quality phone photos. We didn’t have a lot of time.
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Offline 4129R

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday,July 02, 2024, 02:05:43 PM »
I own 3089R, which was exported to Canada, photo enclosed. Your one looks like 3080R.

Without seeing detailed photos of the inside, it is not possible to see what is missing.

My gut feeling is US$5,000 - $7,000 dependent on what is not there. Probably at the lower end.

It needs a lot of work, I have restored 7, so I know what it takes.
« Last Edit: Tuesday,July 02, 2024, 11:41:12 PM by 4129R »

Offline BDA

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday,July 02, 2024, 03:09:41 PM »
4129R is the expert. I would add that the "cannister" is a "catch tank" and quite often deleted. To quickly tell if it's a 4 or a 5 speed, the mounting plate that goes between the tranny and the rear hoop of the frame is rectangular on the 4-speed (part #21 on http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/tcparts/f/tcfd.pdf) and is not on the 5-speed (part #25 on http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/tcparts/f/tcfe.pdf). I'm not sure about the missing secondary throttle.

The frame is something you should verify before you buy otherwise, I'd deduct $1000 or more if you can't determine the quality (that is if you know someone who works with sheet metal who can help you. a new frame is much more than that).

It sounds like you don't feel you're up to replacing or repairing the frame. I understand but keep in mind that these cars are very simple. I would lower your panic level a notch or two. Lots of people have done body-offs including me and if I can do it, most anybody can but if you don't want to be bothered and want something closer to being on the road, this car probably isn't for you.

I think it depends on the price and how adventurous you are.

Good luck!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday,July 02, 2024, 09:07:07 PM »
That is a Pig in a Poke.  The engine overhaul seemed to involve a lifetime supply of silicone sealer.  I wouldn't try to start the engine.  It needs to be stripped and, at a minimum, resealed properly.  People who do this kind of work always skimp in other areas too.  Go with your wife's gut reaction and walk away.

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 01:43:20 AM »
What a thorough and informative account of the history of the car and in many ways how sad.  :'( 
As an extension to my comments in the thread "Ongoing Restorations" originally launched by BDA on the 19th June, I was interested to note that "Dreamer" is 70 years old.     

Offline 4129R

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 02:05:25 AM »
I have just looked at photos of 3089R when I bought it, and saw what I paid for it.

If you are doing all the electrical and mechanical stuff yourself and you are getting a professional paint and trim job, I stick with US$5,000 - $7,000.

If you are having to pay anyone to do any of the electrical and mechanical stuff, and you are getting a professional paint and trim job, walk away.


Offline Dreamer

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 05:49:22 AM »
Thank you for all the replies so far. Perhaps I should explain our situation. As Dilkeris mentioned I am 70 years old. I have neither the space, the proper tools nor the health to take on a long, involved restoration. Nor do I have the financial means to pay others to do such on our behalf. I have a very close, long-time friend who runs a Jaguar parts and restoration shop. I know what he and his employee(s) go through and what it costs. Heck, he has to outsource some of the work at times because it’s too time consuming or they are just too busy to do it all themselves. He’s booked up even though he’d love to do a car for me, even a Lotus.
My father was a motorcycle/automotive mechanic in the mid to late 20’s. He became an certified automotive electrician in the 30’s working for a company called; Walter Chapman Auto Electric. Just before the war he tried to start up a machine shop. He ended up selling his equipment to and then going to work for Oshawa Engineering. This company did a lot of the machine work for the planes and vehicles built by GM of Canada. He built his own airplane in the early 30’s and raced boats and motorcycles. In the fifties he got into car racing by helping a family friend build race cars. In the late fifties he got into restoring old cars. I came along late in his life but remember well him and my much older brothers working on the cars. One of which is quite well known, a yellow 1934 LaSalle rumble seat convertible coupe. So you can see how I come by this love of cars and all things mechanical.
Now how this business about a Europa all started was that the wife agreed to allow me to purchase one of my bucket list cars. We had a 1973 TCS 4 speed back when we were first married so that was one of the cars I was looking for. However, I had always wanted, (and had tried several times to buy) a Caterham seven. I lost out on one that was just two hours from our home. It went to a scumbag flipper who tied to get an extra $15K profit. He’s adjusted his price over the past six months but as far as I know has yet to sell it. I was successful in buying a car off of the on-line action site Bring a Trailer. I over paid for the car but I do not regret that for a moment. Is anyone here a member of the UK Caterham and Lotus 7 Club? If so my car and I were in the May issue of Lowflying in an article entitled, “A Glass And A Half”
So, some of the user names on this forum are familiar like jbcollier who I know via USA7’s.
Now the wife is very supportive of the Caterham and enjoys going places in it but… She will not drive it. The clutch is VERY heavy, the brakes require a lot of effort and the throttle is shall we say “very responsive”. It is not an easy car to drive slowly. She now wants to relive our youth and get a TCS. We were hoping to find a runner that requires minimal expense to make reliable. When she heard about this car she had visions of a low cost recommissioning. You know, go over the brakes, flush the fuel lines, replace some rubber bits and do the cosmetics over time as she enjoyed driving it. This car is not that.
However, she is still thinking that if/when we get to see all the parts boxes and hopefully learn that there are no missing pieces that she can make a deal. She is thinking about offering some of her jewellery and/or camera equipment in trade. The custodian of this car does seem to like a bargain.
We’ll figure out what we do with it if/when we see all the boxes and paper work etc. And that is “IF” she can successfully negotiate a deal.
I’ve attached some photos. One of our old 1973 TCS and one of our new to us 1993 Caterham HPC Evo and a couple of the family’s 1934 LaSalle as when we drove it and after my brother’s/new owner’s restoration.
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Offline BDA

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 07:42:32 AM »
I understand your situation completely. I hope you find a nice runner soon!

BTW - I’m envious of your Caterham. They are an absolute blast!

This could be worth a look https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-lotus-europa-twin-cam-19/.
« Last Edit: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 07:44:40 AM by BDA »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 09:41:23 AM »
I just finished the gearbox overhaul on my Seven and was blasting around in it for the first time this year.  While I was harrying motorcycles on the local twistys, it occurred to me, that if I didn't slow down, I would, deservedly, soon be spending the rest of my retirement locked away for the safety of the general public.  I agree, not the best car for tootling about.

May I make the suggestion that I say to every single person who tells me they want to buy a British sports car: buy a Mazda Miata.  They are far and away the best "British" sports car ever made.  The Miata captures the Lotus ethic but is as reliable as the Mazda 3 they are based on.  Light, nimble on their feet and delight to drive bone stock.  Dance in the twistys or tootle to the shops, the Miata does both with complete aplomb.  No calisthenics required to enter and exit.  Practical, easy to deploy top, and excellent luggage room as well.

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 09:48:40 AM »

This could be worth a look https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-lotus-europa-twin-cam-19/.

   :I-agree: I wish I lived closed to Florida.... AND its even got the ash tray  :) :)

Offline Dilkris

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 11:25:20 AM »
May I make the suggestion that I say to every single person who tells me they want to buy a British sports car: buy a Mazda Miata. 

They are hardly British John...... but a Chapman Lotus, (Europa for example), very much is, complete with provenance.   

Offline Dreamer

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 11:41:16 AM »
@BDA, there is no hurry to buy a Europa on my part. Like with the Caterham, we’ll know it when we see it. If a bargain comes up in the meantime and we can swing it than that’s an option we might take up.
I have never had a bad car, enjoyed them all for what they were. I have had problem cars though, like my ’73 TCS. The car had a rough 3 year life with very little money spent on it before I got it. The worst problem was two broken stub axles. Once when I was driving and had just exited the super slab. The second was when the wife was driving and going very slowly around a bend. Lucky both times as I’ve seen what happens at speed. We also lost a rear wheel when the original wheel nut lock washer broke. You know the one that you hammer up against one of the nut flats. Well I guess they kept using the same one and it let go at some point. I’m driving down the road and here this metallic “ping”. I look in the rear view mirror to see the hub cap sailing off into a field like a Frisbee. I stopped the car, went to look and there’s the bare threads with the lock washer sans folded up flap looking back at me and no nut. Never found it or the hub cap.
Yes, the more I drive the Seven the more I want to drive the Seven.
I posted that ’74 in the Classifieds Forums, eBay - Craigslist Ads - Other Listings section early this morning before I read these posts. The wife doesn’t care for the colour combo as it’s been done to death. We’ll keep a watch on this auction as I have on most of the others over the past couple of years.
@ jbcollier, great that you got your gear box sorted. And yes, we must be mindful of the laws when “blatting about”. I didn’t like the Miata either the old or new versions. I test drove lots of them but I ended up with a 2018 BRZ tS that I loved for five years. My oldest grandson has it now and I have the Seven.
Getting back to the black car that started this thread… @Dilkris When I opened the driver’s door there was a tray full of fasteners sitting on the center rest. Right behind it was “the ashtray”! I pulled it out and showed it to the wife and she said; “Don’t mention that to him (the caretaker) as he’ll want more money.”  :)
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Offline jbcollier

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday,July 03, 2024, 12:27:22 PM »
I hear you.  For all my preaching, I don't have a Miata either, and no intention of getting one.  Still...

Offline Bainford

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #13 on: Thursday,July 04, 2024, 08:30:35 AM »
  No calisthenics required to enter and exit.  Practical, easy to deploy top, and excellent luggage room as well.
Sounds dreadful.
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Offline BDA

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Re: Searching for that illusive gem…
« Reply #14 on: Thursday,July 04, 2024, 09:15:07 AM »
  No calisthenics required to enter and exit.  Practical, easy to deploy top, and excellent luggage room as well.
Sounds dreadful.
:FUNNY: