Brake Line Flares - Help!

[Dilkris]

What am I doing wrong here...??
I have spent some time practicing with both bending brake pipe and forming flares - the bending of the pipe I am comfortable with, but the forming of flares not at all - I have probably formed 40 or so flares practicing but I am far from comfortable with the results as yet.
I am using the brake pipe as per details on the photo and the flare tool as equally on photo.
"Sometimes" but very rarely, I get a well formed flare, (see the brake pipe on the left of the 2 shown side by side) - but seemingly I always get an unwanted deformation of the flare, (almost like a small crease), as shown by the brake pipe on the right with red tape - why?
I have diligently prepared the ends of the pipe prior to forming, used grease, carefully set the protrusion of the pipe in the flare tool and tried slow forming and rapid forming by varying the speed upon which I wind in the die nut, all to no avail.       
Surely some member has lived this same journey - what is the secret?
Help please - this is getting me down.       

[4129R]

For all my new brake lines, I used this tool.

Expensive, but I have never had any bad male or female flare.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282716795573

I think the quality of your flaring tool is the problem. Only my opinion, and unless I used both tools side by side on the same pipe, I could not make a proper conclusion.

[Dilkris]

I hear you 4129R - but for me £159 plus postage to make 23 flares is a hard sell - sure if I was rebuilding cars for a living ok but I'm not.
The tool I am using appears to be well regarded and generally accepted in the industry - they also have the advantage of being able to be taken to the site of the flare - as opposed to the alternative as suggested which I believe (correct me if I am wrong) has to be mounted in a vice or similar.     

[4129R]

Yes it has to be used in a vice.

You can sell it for a decent price on eBay after you have finished using it.

Shame you are not closer, you could have borrowed mine.

[Clifton]

I tried a cheaper $30 tool but ended up with the Eastwood brand tool posted above. There wasn't an Ebay version back then and I didn't want to risk and regret a leak. I think I paid $220 for having the name Eastwood on it. Every flare was perfect though. To do again, I would get the cheaper Ebay version.

[My S1]

Dilkris, 

I feel your pain acutely.  I too had to do allot of practice and develop my own little tricks that are not mentioned in the instruction pamphlet.  I should have kept better notes because it has been several years since I last used the tool but I do remember these bits;

1.   I did some detail deburring before and after flaring.  3/16" SS lines...aluminum is a breeze.
2.   The distance that the tube protrudes from the face of the tool was critical.  I checked my work with a vernier caliper as I went along.
3.   I used motor oil as a lubricant.
4.   I cussed allot and trashed some length of tubing.

Ultimately, I developed the knack and was an expert at that moment in time.  If I did it today, I would have to relearn all those little trick techniques all over again.  Hang in there.

[Dilkris]

Dilkris, 
I feel your pain acutely.
3.   I used motor oil as a lubricant.
4.   I cussed allot and trashed some length of tubing.

At least I am not alone - I feel better now.... 
Haven't tried motor oil as lubricant - I'll give it a go.
Yes - I have so far trashed some metres of tubing..... 

[EuropaTC]

I use the same type of flare tool and whilst I can't remember what make mine is (draper ?), it looks very similar. I've used it with both plain copper and 90/10 cunifer/kunifer and usually it's fine. I have had failures but usually it's been down to me and not the tool. For example;

1. not cutting the tube squarely. These days I use a small pipe cutter which is usually good enough but can deform the bore so I'll de-burr that before flaring.
2. not locating or gripping the tube hard enough. I push the tube hard against the location pin and keep it there whilst tightening the two bolts. I really swing on them, far more than I expect you should need to but if the tube moves even a fraction when you're flaring then it's game over.
3. I always use the red rubber grease as lubricant. When I first made pipes I was hit & miss, sometimes I applied it, sometimes not. Then I noticed it was easier and smoother with and so stuck with it. Shock revalation - reading the instructions works !

Looking at those deformed flares I wonder if they are moving when flaring, something must be getting the tool or tube off centre to get a pronounced sideways shift. I have had failures where it's not formed correctly and usually it's been because the tube has slipped in the tool grip. Only a fraction but enough to mess it  up. 

But if the kit can make a perfect flare once, it can do it again so it's either down to the tube quality or the process/method. Frustrating I know, but you've done it once so it can be done again.

One thing you could try is annealling the end before flaring on the off chance that the tubing is at the higher end of spec. Heat to red heat and then cool, very simple in a butane flame. You can do just the last 5/6mm that you want to flare and see how that goes, it should be much easier.

[Dilkris]

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts, comments and suggestions - I'll have another go tomorrow embracing them all and report on progress accordingly (hopefully) or lack of.   

[My S1]

Allot of heavy grease would be better.  The important thing is to keep the grip part of the tool dry as a bone.

If this flaring job is giving you angst, you'll want to avoid fabricating SS braided hoses and AN fittings.  Fitting those requires an entirely new bag of magic tricks that will bring you to tears!  Not to mention bloody, punctured fingers.

[TurboFource]

I found that it has too much brake line sticking out using their stop … I used a small drill bit (I think about .040”) as a spacer between the brake line and stop to shorten the brake line protrusion from the tools and it formed decent bubble flares for me ….

[Dilkris]

I found that it has too much brake line sticking out using their stop … I used a small drill bit (I think about .040”) as a spacer between the brake line and stop to shorten the brake line protrusion from the tools and it formed decent bubble flares for me ….

My thoughts entirely - I put a washer on the measuring bolt head thinking the brake pipe was not protruding through the die enough - same result.
I had not as yet tried shortening the length of pipe protruding - I'll give it a go.     

[Dilkris]

Thankyou everyone for your thoughts, comments and suggestions - I'll have another go tomorrow embracing them all and report on progress accordingly (hopefully) or lack of. 

OK - please see attached photo's, many of which should answer points previously made. I have now literally tried everything, using oil as opposed to grease as lubricant and even annealing the last 5mm of the end of the brake pipe - all to no avail. I have even tried using brake pipe from differing suppliers.
I simply cannot reliably reproduce a good flare - I make 1 good one - then 5 bad - the last photo shows some of the results, out of 25 attempts, 18 of them I would classify as failures and only 7 are good.
I pretty much give in with this and am ready to dig a big hole and bury the whole project - I have been at this for some days and for something so straight forward it is seriously getting me down
A friend of mine uses the same system and I am going to borrow his to see if the fault lies within the die and the punch itself.

[Grumblebuns]

Looking at the photo of your tubing end pre- flare, I believe you are "over-prepping" the end. There appears to be a lot of metal removed from the tip from excessive deburring/sanding. Take a look at my before pictures. After cutting the tube with my tubing cutter, all I do to prep the end is to very lightly deburr the inside with a reamer and very lightly deburr the outside edge with fine emory cloth. Very little metal is removed. My resultant bubble flare is decent enough. I'm using a similar on car tool that you are using. 

[Dilkris]

Thankyou for the post Grumblebuns - "yes" to all intents and purposes the tools are identical and they do have a wealth of successful provenance.
I have tried all manner of preparation for the ends pre flare - dressing on a fine stone bench grinder to ensure a squared face - removing internal and external burrs - no difference.
I have tried the opposite by simply cutting with the pipe cutter, no dressing and straight into the die - no difference.
It is frustrating.