Experieces in Racing an Europa

[skwiz]

Hi there,

I am french and owner of a 1968 Europa S1A (type 46). I also bought this car with the plan to race it in classic endurances, and as I am finishing the strip down (chassis is going to be removed soon) I am turning my work toward HTP regulations.
You can't imagine how happy I am to have found this forum as I couldn't find any renault powered europa that raced before.
So to any of you who would have informations to provide that would help me prepare my car and a file for the FIA app K, I'd be really happy if you could send my as much details as you have in PM or mail.
To Mecky and Valerio, may you additionally send me a copy of your HTP.
Valerio, what is the type of your car, is it also a type 46 ? I think I read you have a 1500cc (so 1470 then) ?
Serge, how about your europa version ? Have you succeeded in getting a HTP ? Any feedback ?

Thank you in advance for all your help, my plans are to finish my car this year and start racing in 2015 is everything is fine !

[Bainford]

  Welcome to the forum, skwiz. I can't help you personally but there are some very knowledgable people here that can probably offer assistance. Cheers, and good luck.

[Mecky]

Do you want to race the car in gt category against alfa romeo 1600 gtv or in two-seater-racing-car category against Porsche 907 and ford gt 40?

that depends on your engine. you can run as gt only with the Renault 697 engine (1470 ccm wedge head) and tsrc with the Renault 807 engine (1565 ccm crossflow).

[Valerio Leone]

Ciao skwiz,

Mecky is running as TCRS  period GR with a renault 16TS engine with 2 webers ( basically the same engine of the alpine 1600S).
This is not an homologated cars but it is a prototype that raced at Zeltweg on 1968.

I am running as GTS period G2. Here you cannot modify almost anyting in your engine. I just realize that my modifications are not allow as i have not any period proof.

That's not fun at all but at least I can race on nice event like the Tour Auto, Spa 6 Heures, and Nurburgring trophy at the historic oltimer grand prix.

[skwiz]

Bonjour Valerio, hello Bainford and Mecky,

At first I would look for how much I am alowed to modify it with the 1470 in for the GTS class.
=> very little I know, but that would be already fnice to be allowed to race it on these famous tracks !! I guess it is at least possible to slighty improve engine perf provided that it is discrete !

But I am also interested in informations and pictures for the homologation in  TCRS class as it was my original plan to go for a 1600s engine (I already bought a r16TX with 2 weber for that purpose).

I would like to have all the details, measure the pros and cons of both choices before to take final decision.

For exemple, if I would go for the TCRS, do I understand that engine tunning is free !? (provided that it is composed of components used by the proper time !). Also as I have a S1, does it mean that I would have to convert chassis mounting to S2 bolted system or should I keep it as it is. How much information do you have Mecky on that car that raced in Zeltweg ?

At first stage, before to hear about the actual homologation process, I was willing to have my car looking like a type 47 (with lateral tank traps and air intake, slightly larger wheel arches and larger wheels, and power it with a finely tuned 1596cc).

Now I wonder if that's not better to keep it stock to start with... I could still convert it for the TCRS latter ! But I am interested in you opinions as Mecky seems to feel bored to fight with too big cars and Valerio to have a no enought efficient car due to stock restriction...

[Valerio Leone]

Bonjour Skwiz,

I would suggest at first to read the appendix K

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/2014_Appendix%20K_WEB%20(131220).pdf

in specially the introduction where is written:

"Historic competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire
trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential
ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history. Historic
Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the
Motor Car".

then you must accept the fact that you can never be a front runner with an Europa in any configuration. Not even a 47 is nowaday a front runner.
 
you must also have clear which kind of event you want to join, for GT or TCRS.

then you can start spend some money.

for example I suggest  (if you want to race in TCRS) to buy an already made engine Alpine from the specialists in France. You will end up to spend much less than modify your R16TX.
here you can also make some modification to the body (lateral air scoop and larger fenders)
You will have much fun with 160 HP in your back!!
You will not be allowed to join some races like "tour de france auto" or "the spa 6 heures" or "targa florio"
You can join instead some race series like the masterseries or CER.

In case you want to race in GTS the only modification allowed is inside the engine (camshaft, pistons, valves and ported head).
in fact there is no period proof you can use modified manifolds and/or carburettor/s.
here you can also use larger wheels but you cannot modify the body.
Here nobody has develop this 1470 enought so far.

[Mecky]

Bonjour Valerio, hello Bainford and Mecky,

At first I would look for how much I am alowed to modify it with the 1470 in for the GTS class.
=> very little I know, but that would be already fnice to be allowed to race it on these famous tracks !! I guess it is at least possible to slighty improve engine perf provided that it is discrete !

But I am also interested in informations and pictures for the homologation in  TCRS class as it was my original plan to go for a 1600s engine (I already bought a r16TX with 2 weber for that purpose).

I would like to have all the details, measure the pros and cons of both choices before to take final decision.

For exemple, if I would go for the TCRS, do I understand that engine tunning is free !? (provided that it is composed of components used by the proper time !). Also as I have a S1, does it mean that I would have to convert chassis mounting to S2 bolted system or should I keep it as it is. How much information do you have Mecky on that car that raced in Zeltweg ?

At first stage, before to hear about the actual homologation process, I was willing to have my car looking like a type 47 (with lateral tank traps and air intake, slightly larger wheel arches and larger wheels, and power it with a finely tuned 1596cc).

Now I wonder if that's not better to keep it stock to start with... I could still convert it for the TCRS latter ! But I am interested in you opinions as Mecky seems to feel bored to fight with too big cars and Valerio to have a no enought efficient car due to stock restriction...

I speak from the TSRC view:
It's no problem that your car is an S1. The car in Zeltweg was just entered as Lotus Europa with 1600 ccm. On the pictures you can see the flared wheel arches and the valve cover of the crossflow head inside the engine compartment. That's about it.

You would be free to tune your engine up to 1600 ccm. If you race the engine, you have to change lots of parts like the camshaft and the shaft, which turns the distributor. The gear-wheels of that parts are not strong enough to survive very long. The stock valve springs and piston rods are not able to survive a longer time of 6000 rpm. If you have a used engine, I would recommend to use new cylindres and pistons. When you go up to 1596 ccm you should use racing parts and maybe a lighter crank shaft. The head gasket alone is 130 €...

- crankshaft 600 €
- rods 1000 €
- cylindres & pistons 700 €
- valve springs 75 €
- valves 200 €
- camshaft 300 €
- distributor shaft, bearings, gaskets...

We gave all the parts to the Renault tuner and the assembly of OUR parts was 3800 €. Cylindre head and block must be improved and adapted. A well made 807 racing engine is about 7000 €. On our last dyno test we had 156 HP and 670 kg. Then you need a racing clutch and after some time a racing gearbox. The stock gearbox is going to collapse sooner or later, because it was engineered for just 80 HP. A 697 engine would be much cheaper.

On the upside you can use wide rims and tyres, because of the flares. You are faster as every "ordinary" Europa, but never as fast as an Elan or Type 47. And you direct opponents are much, much faster: Porsche 907 with 220 HP and 600 kg, Chevron B16 with up to 275 HP and 590 kg, Lotus 23B with 190 HP and 450 kg... You will always come in last in class, if nobody retires. If you are in a race with TSRC, touring cars and GTs you will be able to have some fun racing the touring cars and GTs. Not more, not less.

[Valerio Leone]

A 697 engine would be much cheaper.

well...not exactly much...

I've made a calculation, using my existing engine (697) a full tuning would end up at 8000 euros.
here may be but I'm not sure you can reach 95/100HP



The Alpine engine from a specialist (160CV) is for sale at 9.600 euros new and guarantee.
Then you need:
header 600 euros
intake manifols 250 euros
carburettors weber 45 DCOE+linkage 1000 euros (tuned)
Distributor 400 euros
tot around 12000 euros.

tune up an R16 TS engine will end up at 10000 euros all included but...guarantee by yourself.

 

[Mecky]

I read about this guy in the American Lotus Talk, who tuned his 697 wedge head engine up to 145 HP...
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f221/new-old-europa-racer-type-54-a-101330/

[skwiz]

I bought this r16TX because it was cheap:
1000€ with two weber 40 and... an amazing aluminium valve cover for 1600cc that you can see here:
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobiles-mythiques-exception/section5/sujet381787-3710.htm

(this is a french forum gathering lot of europa owners, but nobody is racing any...)

But if necessary I would start with another engine... I didn't thought about budget at first (although you are right, it's an important point to take into account in the decision !) but rather about where I will be alowed to race...

This is something I didn't quite get in the homologation process:
We are alowed to race ONLY where we found a car that raced ?
(or does the HTP give access to any international classic race).

Because Mecky you said that with TCRS homologation I could race CER, and when I look at CER website:
http://peterauto.peter.fr/en/evenement/presentation/id/41/nom/Grand%20Prix%20de%20l'Age%20d'Or
we car see in events that it includes LE MANS, SPA, TOUR AUTO,... did the car raced in all these places ? If no are we still alowed to race there ?

If you add up the masterseries tracks it's a lot !!
http://www.themastersseries.com/event-information

(I guess it would be in the FIA MASTERS HISTORIC SPORT CARS CHAMPIONSHIP race-series).

How about GTS available races. I read TOUR AUTO and SPA (TARGA FLORIO is not raced anymore :-( ), what else ?

[Valerio Leone]

Thank you Mecky for the link!!
very!

well I was thinking to prepare my wedge in the same way, I contacted a FIAT specialist here in Italy.
Our main issue is the poor port design as per FIAT 128/X1/9 engines.
Porting, putting larger valves and bench flowing could add a load of steam.
The problem still the header and the carburettor.
Following the appendix K it seems you cannot improve this part without prof of the fact that the same modification has been used back in the time during an international competition.
Now I contacted mr Sebastiani who raced with an Europa in Targa Florio 1970. Let's see...
Serge also told me he is sending me some documents.
 
 

[Valerio Leone]

I bought this r16TX because it was cheap:
1000€ with two weber 40 and... an amazing aluminium valve cover for 1600cc that you can see here:
http://www.forum-auto.com/automobiles-mythiques-exception/section5/sujet381787-3710.htm

(this is a french forum gathering lot of europa owners, but nobody is racing any...)

But if necessary I would start with another engine... I didn't thought about budget at first (although you are right, it's an important point to take into account in the decision !) but rather about where I will be alowed to race...

This is something I didn't quite get in the homologation process:
We are alowed to race only where we found a car that raced ?

Because Mecky you said that with TCRS homologation I could race CER, and when I look at CER website:
http://peterauto.peter.fr/en/evenement/presentation/id/41/nom/Grand%20Prix%20de%20l'Age%20d'Or
we car see in events that it includes LE MANS, SPA, TOUR AUTO,... did the car raced in all these places ? If no are we still alowed to race there ?

If you add up the masterseries tracks it's a lot !!
http://www.themastersseries.com/event-information

(I guess it would be in the FIA MASTERS HISTORIC SPORT CARS CHAMPIONSHIP race-series).

How about GTS available races. I read TOUR AUTO and SPA (TARGA FLORIO is not raced anymore :-( ), what else ?

Well... it depend.
in some competition you can race only if a model of your car raced into it back in the time.
On this case you are not allowed to race at Le Mans Historic not in any configuration GT or TCRS

You can race at the Tour de France Auto the car is among les elegibles (as GT but not as TCRS)

You can race at the Spa Six Heures (as GT). Here you will have an "invitation class" for "trophee eau rouge". the actual Six Heures Trophy is only for pre 66 cars.
At this event in the weekend you could also race one hour race (TCRS or GT). In fact there is a spot for the masterseries. But the Six Hour race is "The Event"

You could race in Targa Florio (as GT)... But les Italiens are not smart enought to organize....

As GT you can race at the Oltimer Grand prix at Nurburgring Nordschleife (Nurburgring trophy).

CER is a series as well as Masterseries here you could race both in GT or TCRS but it is preferable that you ask them before spend money.

Mecky is racing in an intresting series in germany called FHR!!
 


 

[Serge]

I agree, if you are in Europe the German run (but races are all over Europe) FHR cup (http://www.fhr-langstreckencup.de/) is a very nice race series to participate in. A lot of historic race series only allow cars pre-66, but the german one allows a bit younger cars without having to race with all of the youngtimers.

[skwiz]

Thank you Valerio for this detailed answer, you may have forgotten Monza in GTS as you said earlier in this topics that you raced there !

From what you said

in some competition you can race only if a model of your car raced into it back in the time.

I would understand about the two series (CER or mastersseries) that we are able to take part in these championships only in the races our car is entitled for, and the reverse would not be true (entering the CER championship does NOT give automatic eligibility to all the races, especially not to LE MANS...).

Can anyone confirm my deduction ?
If so would you mind helping me in making the most complete list as possible of the races eligibility for both the GTS and TCRS

GTS:

You can race at the Tour de France Auto the car is among les elegibles (as GT but not as TCRS)

You can race at the Spa Six Heures (as GT). Here you will have an "invitation class" for "trophee eau rouge". the actual Six Heures Trophy is only for pre 66 cars.
At this event in the weekend you could also race one hour race (TCRS or GT). In fact there is a spot for the masterseries. But the Six Hour race is "The Event"

As GT you can race at the Oltimer Grand prix at Nurburgring Nordschleife (Nurburgring trophy).

You could race in Targa Florio (as GT)... But les Italiens are not smart enought to organize....

We could add Monza in the Coppa Intereuropa

Anyone knows another one ?


How about TCRS Mecky, where are you entitled to race ?

I guess you can enter all the FHR endurance cup tracks:
- SPA
- Hockenheimring
- Nürburgring GP and Nordschleife
- Zolder in belgium
?

Which ones of the CER are you also looking for ?

[Valerio Leone]

The coppa Intereuropa at Monza is not running this year.
We hope for the next one. 

Just to be clear:
in Europe you can race into a series or you can race in a single event.

the series like CER (organize by Peter Auto) this year will have a slot (the possiblity to race into a big event with a dedicaded grid) in the following meeting:

Mugello Classic Italy
SPA classic Belgium
Grand prix de l'age d'or (dijon) France
Dix mille tour a le Castelet France
Algarve classic Portugal

entry fee is 2200 euros each race

the same the master series will race:

Barcelona – 4/5/6 April   (Q: 1 x 45 min, R: 1 x 60 min) - £1100
Donington classic – 3/4/5 May  (Q: 1 x 30  min, R: 1 x 60 min) - £1100
Brands Hatch GP – 24/25 May  (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 2 x 30 min) - £950
Brno – 4/5/6 July  (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £1100
Silverstone classic – 25/26/27 July   (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 1 x 50 min) - £1175 
Nurburgring oldtimer grand prix– 8/9/10 August   (Q: 1 x 30 min, R: 2 X 30 min) - £950
Zandvoort classic– 29/30/31 August (Q: 1 x 35 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £950
Spa-Francorchamps Spa six hours – 19/20/21 September  (Q: 1 x 40 min, R: 1 X 61 min) - £1100
Jerez – 10/11/12 October  (Q: 1 x 40 min, R: 1 X 60 min) - £1100 

In both series you can enter your Europa as GTS or TCRS.


Spa Six Hours, Le Mans Classic, Tour de France Auto and Nurburgring Marathon are indipendent  races (big events) that you can join if your car is elegible ( for Le Mans and Tour Auto) or (for  Six Hour race)  if your car is invited.
On those Races our Europa (GT) can race all the events except the Le mans Classic