336 gearbox - Clutch will not disengage.

[dakazman]

  I pulled out the gearbox and install a new clutch disc/pressure plate and release bearing as a kit from RD. This assembly is now doing the same thing as the one I took out, hitting the fingers of the pressure plate and stopping.  Thinking I must have put the release bearing or shaft together incorrectly I checked it again with the parts manual. All seem correctly installed. there is also no more forward travel for the release bearing to disengage the pressure plate. I checked the parts manual now thinking my bellhousing is incorrect for the car, so It's possibility since there is two versions . I never drove the car, but the gearbox was in it.
  Question, why would there so much travel of the release bearing to get to the pressure plate? The bellhousing is against the engine block.
 
  Dakazman

[4129R]

Are you sure you have adjusted the clutch cable correctly?

I press the arm as far as possible against the fingers, and slacken the cable 1/4" from that point.

That gives me a normal clutch. 

[dakazman]

  I don’t have the cable even on yet . Movement by hand I’m out to full swing. All I have is free play.
  I posted the pics afterwards from my phone. After I was writing the thread on my desktop.
Dakazman

[bjthomp]

I believe that what you're dealing with is a problem that arose years ago when the flat-faced release bearings and associated pressure plates were NLA and replaced with the current type (round-faced release bearings that made contact with the pressure plate fingers). It caused a bit of consternation and apparently still does. The solution to the problem was to machine a release bearing hub, to replace the original one, that is longer, thus allowing the release bearing face to contact the pressure plate fingers. I don't have the dimensions for the new style hub, but years ago I bought one from Mark Markell who took the time to figure the solution and put the specs on the Golden Gate Lotus web site. I just looked for it and couldn't find it. But Mark is still a member of this group or maybe it's the other one Lotus Europa Groups. If not, I'm sure somebody else has been through this who can help you out.

[dakazman]

I believe that what you're dealing with is a problem that arose years ago when the flat-faced release bearings and associated pressure plates were NLA and replaced with the current type (round-faced release bearings that made contact with the pressure plate fingers). It caused a bit of consternation and apparently still does. The solution to the problem was to machine a release bearing hub, to replace the original one, that is longer, thus allowing the release bearing face to contact the pressure plate fingers. I don't have the dimensions for the new style hub, but years ago I bought one from Mark Markell who took the time to figure the solution and put the specs on the Golden Gate Lotus web site. I just looked for it and couldn't find it. But Mark is still a member of this group or maybe it's the other one Lotus Europa Groups. If not, I'm sure somebody else has been through this who can help you out.

   Yes I had the holder machined to fit according to the design dimensions per RD that came in the kit.
See pic.

[dakazman]

   I found a picture of the bell housing before taking it apart after initial cleaning. I need to check this part number.
  I could also have an incorrect flywheel . Maybe one that is a little thicker.  Just a thought. I don’t think i mixed them up .
 Dakazman

[Bryan Boyle]

   I found a picture of the bell housing before taking it apart after initial cleaning. I need to check this part number.
  I could also have an incorrect flywheel . Maybe one that is a little thicker.  Just a thought. I don’t think i mixed them up .
 Dakazman

sent you a PM.

what you're looking for are the right bearing.  The curved face ones won't work properly if you are using the OEM "200D" pressure plate.  If it's not (and I think that is what RD is selling right now), all bets are off.  I'm willing to posit that the length of the bearing assembly is less than the original, so, from the pivot point of the carrier to the face of the bearing is less than what is needed to engage the fingers on the pressure plate and release the clutch.  Not having my hands on it, that's what I'd guess. 

Have you pinged the r16shop in the netherlands for the right parts for the R16-based mill?  While you have to be certain of what you need, I've always found Geert to be responsive and help as much as he can (fwiw, that's the concern that's repopping the lotus-spec cams to help us out.)

[dakazman]

 Bryan, thank you for all your input.
That is the assembly I just removed. Then I purchased a new kit from RD and had the carrier cut .
So the Steve option is out. However by turning over the carrier arm shortened the free throw it seems to be over the pull cables throw.
  I uploaded a video to YouTube here of the free throw on the arm .
  https://youtube.com/shorts/1JO0eQJWjIo?si=O6AMmX83MdnoXkdd
 
  I also compared a tc to a s2 housing  just to see the angle of the carrier arm.
 
  So it seems that the carrier will stay an originally installed but the drift pin holes need to be welded up and clocked for more movement within the arc of the pull cable .

Thoughts?
  Dakazman

[bjthomp]

The pressure plate that goes with the flat-faced release bearing went out of production over 20 years ago. RD is not selling that type. One can see in the photos that go with the original posting that the fingered type is being used. Your flywheel is fine and so is your bell housing. The problem, in spite of the fact that you machined the T.O. bearing hub per instructions (turning down the O.D. of the bearing mating surface) does not get the bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers. The bearing mounting surface needs to be lengthened to get the bearing to contact the fingers (see attach) by making a new hub. I have heard of a work around that involves not pressing the bearing fully home and putting shims behind it, but work arounds eventually turn into DPOs.

[Richard48Y]

Anyone have a drawing of the corrected carrier?
Seems this is likely to affect me too at some point, and I have a lathe.
If I can set up stops to simplify production I can make several.
Too bad I no longer have CNC's.

[dakazman]

  Bjhomp,
  I agree with you on the carrier problem. It definitely needs to be extended to work.
Thanks for the pfd part II file.  I would also like a part number of this t.o. bearing supplied in kit .
I have another approach in mind, a floating carrier, halfway on shaft , leaving everything as is and cutting off the cable handle and clocking it to float or come forward, having enough throw to engage the fingers.
  I could later add a shim for new position.
Dakazman
 

[Bryan Boyle]

The pressure plate that goes with the flat-faced release bearing went out of production over 20 years ago. RD is not selling that type. One can see in the photos that go with the original posting that the fingered type is being used. Your flywheel is fine and so is your bell housing. The problem, in spite of the fact that you machined the T.O. bearing hub per instructions (turning down the O.D. of the bearing mating surface) does not get the bearing to contact the pressure plate fingers. The bearing mounting surface needs to be lengthened to get the bearing to contact the fingers (see attach) by making a new hub. I have heard of a work around that involves not pressing the bearing fully home and putting shims behind it, but work arounds eventually turn into DPOs.

Don't want it to seem like I'm challenging you, but,  received this from Steve at SJ Sportscars in the UK, who obtains his stock from Geert at the R16 shop, in response to a question I posed to him (in an email thread):

Yes, we are. 

The cover is https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ046Q0004.htm
The throwout is https://www.sjsportscars.com/parts-and-accessories/SJ046Q0002.htm

Steve

On 10/10/2023 16:37, Bryan D. Boyle wrote:
> Steve:
>
> Geert sent me your contact info; for the r16 based motors, are you selling the proper pressure plate and flat faced throwout bearings?  Rumor abounds that they've not been available for decades.
>

This was in response as a follow-on contact from Geert at the r16shop (who actually lists some Lotus parts to support us), who responded to a message I sent earlier this morning:

Hi Bryan

Interesting question.

I agree with you that they would never have used any different clutch systems so 99,9% sure that it will be the same.
I sell them to SJ sports in the UK so he will know for sure.
Do you know him?
Below his emailadress:
steve@sjsportscars.co.uk

PS: Did you see all the Lotus parts listed in our shop? Last added items were: Tappets(all R16 engines) and Camshafts for 821 engine.

Have a nice day
Regards Geert

>
>
>
> Geert:
>
> I know this is a bit out of your range of interest...but, are the
> original clutch pressure plates and throwout bearings for the R16 (as
> they were supplied to Lotus...like I said, out of your direct interest)
> motor (821, etc) still available? Had a question on this side as to
> whether the cork-faced pressure plate and the flat throwout on the
> carrier were still around somewhere. I see them in the r16shop listing,
> but wondering if they're useable on the 821 mills that was supplied to Chapman
> back in the day.
>
> Understand if you don't know... but you being the R16 expert, I can not imagine the
> the Regie changing more of the motor before they sold the kit to Chapman
> than the pistons, cam, and handing a solex dual throat on the manifold.

Shipping to this side sucks, but, according to these two experts...they are still available and in stock.  Passing it on from two suppliers who say they have the parts in their stock.

[dakazman]

  Thanks Bryan.
  I know it takes a lot of time to reply to a thread and really appreciate any advice. After finding some scraps I figured, no harm in trying.
I read what you posted on Facebook to another thread on clutches and that he should extend the carrier crosshaft to the other side . So with that in mind I did just that . I also should be able to give the spherical to bearing to disengage the clutch fingers with the added throw of the arm. Clocked further back. Drilling two parallel holes were a little tedious but it work out .
  I also compared the tc and s2 housings same arm on both but the tc had a longer throw. It also had a spherical to bearing.  See last pic .
  It’s still a work in progress, fabricating the arms now.

Dakazman

[jbcollier]

Hmm, interesting one.

What angle is the clutch fork arm at when the release bearing touches the clutch?

[dakazman]

  I pinned the shaft all ready but here are some pics of the shaft.
  The last two pics are the travel I picked up.
 I’ll try to find the angle it was but with the beginning angle forward as it was the throw was terrible
  If it went any further upward the cable run would have to flex upwards

Dakazman