Author Topic: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!  (Read 2108 times)

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Offline Fotog

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #45 on: Friday,January 13, 2023, 09:15:26 AM »
If I recall my experience doing the electrolysis, some wire-brushing afterward is helpful, but it sure removes lots of corrosion.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #46 on: Saturday,January 14, 2023, 11:23:31 PM »
Electrolysis keeps removing more dreck, a layer forms on top of the water.
I have emptied and refilled the tub for a second go.
Not a quick process but also not laborious.

I did find Penetrol at Lowes.
Hoping to be able to decide how I am proceeding soon.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #47 on: Sunday,January 15, 2023, 03:04:36 PM »
After two days there is noticeable rust removal but still not sufficient.
I had to remove the wire mesh anode I had been using as it has mostly disintegrated.
I found some old expanded metal to replace it but hope to buy more and form it up for a better surrounding anode.
It seems the process is somewhat directional and also affected by distance.

Offline Fotog

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #48 on: Sunday,January 15, 2023, 04:13:38 PM »
I think lots of surface area for your anode is good.  I recall using large steel cans.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #49 on: Sunday,January 15, 2023, 11:30:48 PM »
I found some old expanded metal to replace it but hope to buy more and form it up for a better surrounding anode.
It seems the process is somewhat directional and also affected by distance.
Now I'll start off by saying I've not used this method to clean rusty items myself.  For DIY I prefer mechanical/sand blastbut I have used inhibited chemicals (HCl/stannous chloride) for smaller parts that you can soak overnight. So bear that in mind with the next comments... 

Basically, "Anodes Corrode", it's a downside but I suppose you could use a more corrosion resistant metal and multiple anodes ? 

The reaction is dependent on current density, basically the closer the anode/cathode are the better. Likewise current and relative surface areas will play a part.   The problem with this is that you've got a very large cathode area and some of it is "hidden" because you're trying to clean an internal surface.

The impression I get from the photo is that you've got a single anode at one side of the tank ?  One way of improving it would be to run the anode around the tank diameter and make a couple of connections, as long as it doesn't short against the chassis, it will be fine. That gives a more even current distribution around the chassis and should help with the directionality of the process.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #50 on: Sunday,January 15, 2023, 11:58:42 PM »
With the wire mesh I had placed it under to face the main surface and around the edges.
Lots of visible action but the wire mesh was too fine and disintegrated.
My original thought for mesh was that it would provide more actual surface area than a metal sheet.
Currently still running but using some much heavier expanded metal under.
I see less bubbling but the reaction is ongoing.
What I am not satisfied with is the removal of heavy scale between layers and inside the box section.
Perhaps acid would get to that in a timely manner?
In any case the pitting, thinning, and gaps, have convinced me to try to just replace the T section.
I will use this process again on smaller parts but have to consider it a fail for closed in areas.
Maybe it would succeed eventually?

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #51 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 02:08:40 AM »
Firstly, excuse me cutting up your original post, it's just so I keep a logical order.....

With the wire mesh I had placed it under to face the main surface and around the edges.  Lots of visible action but the wire mesh was too fine and disintegrated. My original thought for mesh was that it would provide more actual surface area than a metal sheet. Currently still running but using some much heavier expanded metal under. I see less bubbling but the reaction is ongoing.

Sounds about right, I couldn't tell from the photo. Basically I'd want to space it as close as possible and all around the surface I wanted to clean. For something like that I'd expect to do it in several stages, moving the anode to the bit I wanted to attack. I agree, expanded metal will give a larger surface area although I think with more area your current density will drop for a given input. The other snag is that the expanded area gives more opportunities for it to corrode !  Maybe try something like copper or stainless sheet ? I don't know, that's a pure stab in the dark.

What I am not satisfied with is the removal of heavy scale between layers and inside the box section.
Perhaps acid would get to that in a timely manner?

Personally I doubt it will remove scale between two layers of a steel sandwich if that's what you're hoping.  It'll clean up the outsides great but access for electrolyte down the crevice will be poor and that's what you'll need to remove scale. It could do it but without some brushing/circulation it'll take ages.

The same circulation problem between layers applies for acid as well, in fact I can't think of a good way of ensuring it's clear. Acid would be worse because you'd have to make double sure you'd got everything out and that would be difficult.

The box section has similar problems of getting the anodes in the best place and although it will work you'll have the outsides sparkly clean before the insides get moving.  I think you've started with the hardest possible part of the car to do !

In any case the pitting, thinning, and gaps, have convinced me to try to just replace the T section. I will use this process again on smaller parts but have to consider it a fail for closed in areas. Maybe it would succeed eventually?

I'd second that, if there's any significant rusting then I give up trying to clean & paint, I simply cut out metal and replace with new.

There was light surface rust inside the crossmember when I repaired my chassis and all I did was clean as much as possible then cover the area with waxoyl, a non-drying waxy underseal, to keep air/moisture away. Providing it doesn't get washed off with road spray (as it would on the uprights/outer surface for example) it's done a great job in arresting corrosion. Every now and then when I think about it I'll spray a bit more through the access holes but that's probably overkill/wasteful.

But even if you do end up repairing/replacing the front section, the big positive is that you've sorted out the process and have something that will be excellent for cleaning things like the vertical links and suspension parts. Probably good for calipers as well ?

Brian

Offline RoddyMac

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #52 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 08:26:55 AM »
Richard,
I did a quick CAD conversion of the files I linked, and fed them into Send Cut Send's website.  They're quoting roughly $300 for cutting and bending, but you would still need to weld the pieces up, as well as turn the pins/bushings for the suspension pickups.  I don't know if this helps, but it's an option for you and other Europa owners. 

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #53 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 08:40:21 AM »
 :huh: NEVER EVER use stainless for electrolysis!!!!!!!!
I forgot the name of the FATAL gases created.  :holdurbreath:

Got pics from Spydercars this morning.
As soon as I get the invoice the new frame head will be purchased.
It is their upgraded design which appears stronger and less prone to rusting from the inside out.
It also appears to make access to the steering u-joint much simpler.
« Last Edit: Monday,January 16, 2023, 09:10:02 AM by Richard48Y »

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #54 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 08:48:28 AM »
Overlapping post.
$300.00 plus a little turning and welding is VERY good!
I have already committed to the Spydercars frame head, partially in the interest of speed.
But I think I will follow up on your lead too. I have a lathe and welding equipment.
I know these are needed fairly often and Spydercars does not want to make them a standard item.
I can cut up my old frame head if needed to get a clear understanding of the assembly order.
I expect that adding some seam seal along the way would also help durability.

Offline BDA

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #55 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 09:17:22 AM »
Got pics from Spydercars this morning.
As soon as I get the invoice the new frame head will be purchased.
It is their upgraded design which appears stronger and less prone to rusting from the inside out.
It also appears to make access to the steering u-joint much simpler.
That is the ‘T’ design used in my early Spyder frame that I’ve tried to describe elsewhere. As you noted, it is a huge improvement over the original design for the reasons you stated. I suppose it’s not part of their catalog because it might cut into sales of their complete frames.

I have no real experience in fabricating, especially sheet metal fabrication, but it seems like something that could copied.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #56 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 09:24:22 AM »
Yes, but scruples.
Why I never made a lot in retail business, always trying too hard to be fair to the customer.  :headbanger:

I am looking into replicating the original style, the on-line metal shops price is too good to compete with for cutting and bending. I have the tools to complete assembly.

Offline RoddyMac

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #57 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 09:26:37 AM »
Quote
I forgot the name of the FATAL gases created.  :holdurbreath:

From what I remember it's Hexavalent Chromium, or at least that's what the site safety guys were warning about when welding inside stainless vessels.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #58 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 09:40:51 AM »
Yes, that is it.
Apparently pretty nasty stuff, someone mentioned it being used as weapons gas.

Offline RoddyMac

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Re: One last hard chore, frame head rust removal!
« Reply #59 on: Monday,January 16, 2023, 01:03:31 PM »
I tidied up the CAD files and uploaded them to Send Cut Send.  The total came to $350.71, but they can't do all the bends.  The "main" piece of the crossmember exceeds their maximum bend length.  If you had access to a 48" box and pan break that could handle 16 ga steel, then it should work just fine.    If anyone wants the DXF files, let me know via PM.  Also, I can't guarantee the dimensions are 100% as I didn't create the original drawing/pdf.

« Last Edit: Monday,January 16, 2023, 01:05:03 PM by RoddyMac »