Author Topic: LED headlights (again)  (Read 587 times)

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Offline BDA

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LED headlights (again)
« on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 01:08:24 PM »
There is an old thread on LED headlights but since it was so old, I thought I might start a new one.

When I built my car, I replaced the sealed beams with halogens. I was still not satisfied with the result and I also worried about stress on the electrical system as I hadn't installed any relays for the headlights (adding a bunch of relays and a nicer fuse box is a possible/likely future project), I was intrigued with LED headlights.

The LED headlight lamps (bulb(s), lens, reflector, etc.) are generally pretty futuristic looking and l thought they would look out of place on a Europa. Most of the LED replacements for H4 halogen bulbs had fans which I wasn't excited about because they can fail and I didn't know if they would even fit in the standard headlight bucket.

A while ago, EuropaTC told me about some LED H4 replacements that he got and was pretty enthused about. They had fans and they did fit in the bucket. His were four-sided bulbs which seemed reasonable since a halogen bulb is omni-directional. I found these (https://www.ebay.com/itm/194352881089) at what seemed like a ridiculous price so I got them.

Fitting them wasn't difficult. I drilled a few (three, I think) 3/8" holes in the back of the bucket, installed the bulbs in the lens (which required a little fiddling since it is retained by spring clips that didn't fit over the fans), plugged the pigtail from the bulb into the standard socket and jammed it all in the bucket. The difference was dramatic! The price was low enough that I didn't care if the fans went out and the truth was that I don't drive much at night anyway. The time or two I've driven since I installed them was much more comfortable than with my old halogens!

Then I saw this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnD_sDWNjEw) which explained why what I did was all wrong. From what the guy in the video said, the 4-sided bulbs are wrong and the 2-sided was the way to go. There is also the question of where the light source is in relation to the parabolic reflector for the lens. I have to admit that the pattern I was getting wasn't that distinct. I don't know if it is because my Hella lens was probably thirty years old or it the light wasn't in the correct position for my reflector.  I think if I were to change them, I would replace them with something like these. ("these" is the hyperlink, the real link was really long!) They are a bit more expensive but they are much closer to the right size and position and they don't have a fan. Hopefully, the pattern would be better but even if it is no better, the price still isn't that bad.

Offline Sandyman

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 02:08:55 PM »
I am now using Hilly Retro brights. Original look, great brightness.

Offline BDA

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 02:35:39 PM »
Got a link for those, Sandyman?

Offline gideon

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 02:41:10 PM »
I am now using Hilly Retro brights. Original look, great brightness.

The man from Headlight Revolution also recommended the Holley Retrobright headlights - or the JW Speaker 8700 Evo 2 Classic. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9erKnbHQK0

Offline gideon

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 02:49:02 PM »
Got a link for those, Sandyman?
https://www.headlightrevolution.com/Sealed-Beam-Holley-RetroBright-LED-Headlights-7-Round?quantity=1
or
https://www.headlightrevolution.com/JW-Speaker-Model-8700-classic_2?quantity=1#

The pricing is confusing because the (I think) the Holley's are priced at $399.90 for a pair, while the JW Speakers are priced at $278.08 each (but I'm not certain).

Offline jbcollier

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 02:52:02 PM »
You can get LED powered Hella H4 units from Stoddard Porsche.  Expensive but beautiful, bright, stock look, and a sharp cut-off.  I popped one open and it uses a two-sided H4 LED bulb.  I picked up a set for my Seven as I wanted to keep it stock looking.

Offline Sandyman

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 04:44:04 PM »
Spelling mistake. Should be Holly as in carbs. Just type in  Holly Retrobrights.

Offline Kendo

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 05:28:58 PM »
Those H4 LED bulbs need a separate reflector. Is that available from the usual suspects?

Offline BDA

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 07:40:11 PM »
I don't know about the usual suspects although they would be a good place to start. I think I saw some on Amazon and ebay. I would stick with name brands like Hella and Cibie.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday,November 15, 2022, 10:57:52 PM »
Hmm, I don't know what to make of this. I watched the Headlight Revolution videos and some things I understand, others I don't. 

Firstly, in the UK you'd fail the annual MoT test if you put LED bulbs into Halogen reflectors. It's a blanket rule, regardless of reflector or bulb marking. This meant only modern cars could use LEDs if they were factory fitted. And the astounding logic for this wasn't the reflector or whether light beams were scattered/dazzle other drivers, it was because a lot of aftermarket bulbs weren't CE marked. 

This was later modified in 2021 in yet another "huh ?" decision by allowing pre April 1986 cars to use LEDs because existing legislation (which they'd forgotten) stated that pre '86 cars didn't have to use CE marked lighting. So if your LED headlamps fit the legally approved pattern, you'll now pass the MoT ?   This gives us in the UK great confidence in the professionalism of people making rules about motoring.

When you look at the reflector styles of some modern headlamps like the ones the HR guy had on display you can see the logic because some have so many reflective surfaces that yep, you need to know exactly where the light source is placed to extract the design performance and not scatter light sideways.  I get that, no problem.

I also see the problem of retro fitting modern single unit headlamps because some have passive heat sinks and are bulky. When I looked into it a couple of years ago now, most of the affordable single units wouldn't fit without getting a new headlamp bowl. Not a problem on our cars because there's space, but it would be if you have a free-standing chrome headlamp "on stalks".

Then we come to the second video for classics where we get the "these LEDs are worse than your standard halogen".  Now that was surprising and what's more I could see the light output and patterns he showed in his examples.   Not what I expected but thinking about it I have outdoor LED security lamps and some are brighter than others, some are "warmer" light which also makes a difference to perceived brightness. So yep, I'd expect a cheaper LED to have lower quality control and maybe fewer elements than a more expensive one.

But where I give up is in the later assessments because they just don't tie up with what I found in real life.

I started off in 2019-20 with the Elan & Europa both on original sealed beam candles. It was never a problem because I rarely drove at night and if I did, I used a modern car. But then I found I was staying later at my archery club and ending up driving home in the early evening which became a problem. So I fitted Wipac quadoptics to both cars with relays & halogens. Great.

Then a mate turned up on a motorbike which he'd fitted LEDs to and compared with my two halogens, it was very noticeable. He showed me what he'd done, I followed the path and that's where I am now. (and staying with it)

I don't have the means to measure lux values as in the youtube tests but even so, I did do direct comparisons.  In the UK we have rules about beam cut-off and suchlike so it was important that whatever I did wouldn't result in the police stopping me or other motorists honking/flashing me at night.

So I marked the pattern on the garage wall for high/low beams on the OEM sealed beams. Repeat for the halogens, adjusting to get them matching because everything had been apart to fit the halogens & relays.  I also repeated this for the LEDs and frankly there was no difference in pattern height from the halogens to the LEDs. There was more light and a wider spread, due to the reflectors ? 

But not such that the beam pattern would be illegal, it was just "more/brighter light at the edges". There's less of a "spotlight" effect that you get with the OEM lamps and a more uniform light pattern. For me that makes night driving easier because I'm driving on unlit roads with ditches either side and when it's dark, it's dark !

I have no idea what's going on in the comparison videos showing most LEDs are inferior to new halogens, but the bulbs I have (4 element) are definitely brighter than the (brand new) halogen bulbs they replaced. I did back to back comparisons and at one point had one halogen, one LED on the Elan and I could see a difference. It might simply be down to wavelength but it was noticeable in a darkened garage.   The light patterns in terms of cut-off and potential for dazzling other road users are pretty much identical and certainly legal.

So in conclusion I'd say "DYOR" - Do Your Own Research. Don't immediately discount the simpler, cheaper options, just make sure you stay within your local laws and see what works for you ?

Brian

Offline BDA

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,November 16, 2022, 08:08:56 AM »
Headlight regulations, especially in the US and in the past (for the record, I haven’t kept up with them so I have no idea what they actually are now). Back in the late ‘70s when halogens were new and used all over Europe, they were illegal in the US even though they put out much more light. As I remember, it had to do with the failure mode or something.


Offline jbcollier

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday,November 16, 2022, 08:24:17 AM »
It was because they weren't sealed.  In theory this meant moisture could get in and the reflector deteriorate.  This was a problem with many vintage cars which is why "sealed-beams" were required by law.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday,November 16, 2022, 08:52:40 AM »
It was because they weren't sealed.  In theory this meant moisture could get in and the reflector deteriorate.  This was a problem with many vintage cars which is why "sealed-beams" were required by law.
And to be fair John, that's a justifiable point and it still can be a problem over here. It's a failure point on our annual roadworthiness test.

My Elise headlamps, an unusual size and with concave rather than convex lenses, suffered from corrosion on the reflectors despite all my efforts. No obvious water ingress but just 15 or so years of our wonderful British weather and they were done, replaced before someone failed them at the annual MoT.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: LED headlights (again)
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday,November 16, 2022, 11:38:41 AM »
Sealed tungsten headlights deteriorate dramatically over time even though they are sealed.  They are a pale shadow of their original output by the time they give up entirely.  Sealed halogen headlights are about the same as their non-sealed counterparts except you have to change everything when the bulb blows.