Author Topic: Air flow questions  (Read 1127 times)

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Offline Polopharm

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Air flow questions
« on: Saturday,September 24, 2022, 06:17:29 PM »
I have tried to search this on the forum to no avail.

Are the vents on engine cover outlets to expel heat or inlets for fresh air.
I have seen people make some crazy roof high ram air ducts into them, but the design seems like an outlet as it doesn't look like a place that would get a lot of fresh air.
If it is an outlet how is fresh air channeled in?
Looking at some europa race cars they have naca ducts on the b pillar which I assume are ducted to the intake?
On the mk 1 mr2 the engine cover vents, similar location to the europa, and are outlets, many people add fans to actively push out hot air.  Cold air is channeled under the car and enters from below the rear bulkhead. So any ram type intakes on the engine cover are not productive.

Radiator- why would stock radiator not be directly behind the grill, which would seem to get most airflow?
Reading older posts seems like a lot of talk about over heating , how many people have added oil coolers?

Offline BDA

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,September 24, 2022, 07:42:24 PM »
I don't know what the NACA ducts on the 47 are for (for that matter, I don't know what the ducts on a Ferrari 308 GTB or any number of cars are for) but I do know that the vents in the TC engine cover suck air from the engine compartment into the area behind the rear window. I think the S2 is similar but the screen between the tail/brake/backup lights could alter things. Here is a video I took of the air flow in my car (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqHFg4q7jxA). I had figured that a low pressure area would form behind the back of the car but the area behind the rear window provides a much stronger low pressure area (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L4F4dEc2BQ). Possibly, if it weren't for the engine cover vents, the rear would have a stronger low pressure area.

I also understand that, as counter intuitive as it seems given the previous paragraph, that the snorkels are designed to provide cold air for the carbs actually do the job for which they are intended. In fact, a member here (Sandyman) made his own snorkel that seemed to cool the engine compartment and presumably also cool the intake charge. Here is part of a thread that discusses that (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=3062.msg57530#msg57530). For intake charge cooling, there are other options. One that is very effective is to snake the intake air cleaner down near the bottom of one of the fuel tanks. Here's a thread (there may be others) about it including a pdf attachment describing how our own pboedker did his (http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2658.0). Since I have to guess, I would guess that the NACA ducts on the 47 provide a similar function to the snorkels...

I think the idea for the radiator is put it on one side to make room for a spare tire and jack. I would also guess that Lotus sized it and decided in front of the right front tire was a good place for it. People with more aggressive engines sometimes put a larger radiator that exhausts out the top of the bonnet. This is efficient but I would imagine their spare tire is a tire patch kit and battery operated compressor or a bottle of Slime.

As I stated before, I assumed that the car would form a low pressure area behind the car so that's where I put my oil cooler. That turned out to be a mistake. An oil cooler would be better placed in front of the radiator or if you really want to get fancy, you could fence off some air for an oil cooler in front of the left front tire - the idea being not to steal too much air from the radiator. I figured that I didn't want air warmed by an oil cooler to be used to cool my water but I was too cautious in that regard. Dave Anderson had an interesting oil cooler arrangement (https://www.prevanders.net/europa/oilsystem.html). He isn't specific about how efficient it is though. The plain fact is that I have an oil temp gauge and my oil has never been really hot. I have an oil thermostat and I'm sure it's been opened but I don't think it is a common occurrence based on the oil temp readings I see. If I knew what I know now when I built my car, I might not have bothered with an oil cooler. If my car had a lot of track time, I would probably be glad to have one, though.

As for overheating, I've never had a problem with it. I don't do much downtown stop and go traffic driving which would be harder on the cooling system. I really think that is the only time the cooling system is really marginal. I use Red Line's Water Wetter and distilled water (It rarely freezes hard here and the car is in the garage anyway so it never experiences a freeze at all) and I have an aluminum radiator with the highest CFM fan I could find. Other than that, my cooling system is not remarkable.
« Last Edit: Saturday,September 24, 2022, 07:48:06 PM by BDA »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #2 on: Saturday,September 24, 2022, 10:16:59 PM »
+1  The air flows up out of the vents in the engine cover.

Adding “ram” air down through the same vents actually does work as the ram air effect is much stronger than the vacuum drawing air up.  Ram air would pressurize the engine compartment and push air down and/or back and out.

NACA ducts do not flow much air.  One lister hooked his air intake to one NACA duct and the lack of air flow choked off the carbs at high rpm.  They look cool and do flow some air, but not that much.

The first mid-engined cars started out smooth and sleek.  Then they discovered all the air flow issues and ram air intakes started appearing, for good reason.

The front plenum is “sealed” and pressurizes at speed greatly increasing air flow through the rad.  It all actually works very well.  The issues arise at slow speeds and stopped in traffic where air flow is insufficient.  The stock rad fans are poorly implemented.  Fit the biggest CFM one you can find.

Offline Sparkrite

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #3 on: Saturday,September 24, 2022, 11:18:49 PM »
Very informative replies. Ive often wondered would the air filter be better off taking  air from the luggage tray which surely must be cooler than the engine bay.To BDA the ducts on the 308 gtb are for fresh air to the carburettors and on the other side for the oil cooler.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #4 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 01:21:50 AM »
Very informative replies. Ive often wondered would the air filter be better off taking  air from the luggage tray which surely must be cooler than the engine bay.

There was a thread about this a while ago. It started off about air temperatures and wandered into changing the location for the air filter on the TC engines.

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=2658.15

Despite the fact the original location has worked for umpteen years without any obvious problems, I was inspired by Peter's article and changed the air intake on my car so that if collected air from down by the petrol tank. I can't honestly say I've noticed any more power but on the plus side the filter seems to stay clean enough and the engine bay looks tidier.

Brian

Offline TurboFource

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #5 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 05:04:45 AM »
If the radiator is in the front wouldn't you always get warm air coming through the dash ducts?
The more I do the more I find I need to do....remember your ABC’s …anything but chinesium!

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #6 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 05:41:39 AM »
Yes, unless the warm air is ducted out through the front cover..

Offline BDA

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #7 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 08:23:14 AM »
…To BDA the ducts on the 308 gtb are for fresh air to the carburettors and on the other side for the oil cooler.

Thanks!!  :)

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #8 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 09:32:52 AM »
For an oil cooler installation, I'm thinking of placing it in the rear opening (license plate area) with a small electric fan or under one of the openings of the rear deck lid. I'm suspecting the PO had thoughts had the same idea with the rear section cut out. Any thoughts on either option?

Joji Tokumoto

Offline Polopharm

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #9 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 10:21:20 AM »
My car has air filter in luggage compartment,  clearly it gets some fresh air, not sure how and obviously not great flow. For my application with the 4age and injection, not many alternatives, I guess you could somehow duct air into the luggage area.
Oil cooler, I was thinking of the same location. My consulier gtp race car has the radiator in a similar spot. I would think with the 47 race car the ducts go to oil cooler on one side and intake on the other.

When I get back to Florida will have my race mechanic and fab guy evaluate what I do to get my car functional so I can decide what to do with it- keep or sell.
For sure electric water pump, use old water pump location to have more room for better alternator mounting. Change slave cylinder to pull type a la JB.

If I keep car I would look into feasibility of top mounted pedals, has anyone done that?

Offline Lou Drozdowski

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #10 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 01:41:20 PM »
For an oil cooler installation, I'm thinking of placing it in the rear opening (license plate area) with a small electric fan or under one of the openings of the rear deck lid. I'm suspecting the PO had thoughts had the same idea with the rear section cut out. Any thoughts on either option?

Joji Tokumoto

Depending on where your exhaust is routed, here's another area of opportunity.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #11 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 01:43:28 PM »
PO modified the front of my S2 to incorporate an air-dam.
He never quite finished it so I have work to do there.
I have wondered about incorporating ducting to run inside the sills for colder air to the carbs.
But I seem to recall reading somewhere that too long of ducting stacks air until it has very little flow.
Answer becomes larger diameter ducting, but that would not be possible with the limited space inside the sills.
Anyone tried this?

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #12 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 01:55:10 PM »
Air flows in at the rear.  Even with a fan to push it out, warm air from a rear mounted oil cooler would probably just flow back in again unless you have air flowing in from elsewhere to pressurize the rear compartment to push it out.

Offline Sandyman

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #13 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 01:56:49 PM »
Richard, I also thought that getting the air from the front was a possibility. The thing that stopped me was how to get the duct through the front wheel area. My scoop was the easiest idea.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Air flow questions
« Reply #14 on: Sunday,September 25, 2022, 02:11:48 PM »
Yes, just came back in from looking at it. 
Could conceivably pull from the rear of the front wheel arch via a modification of the shut panel.
But then it's still an issue to find space to route the duct at the rear ahead of the tire. :headbanger:
Now considering a scoop low on the body behind the door.
Under is probably simpler and less visible.
I have an idea for that but I'm one of those guys who can probably fabricate it faster than I can draw it.
Basically a wide shallow scoop directed to carb air box ducting.
Similar to what was posted above in a link.
I might try to do one on each side to cool the engine compartment as well.
My car has been lowered so space is pretty tight.