Pan Off

[Bryan Boyle]

Well...18 bolts later (the split washers under the bolt heads were flattened...and took them off with a nutdriver!), the pan's off.  The cork gasket crumbled, and the front and rear seals were held in by a copious amount of RTV.  The dished areas in the pan flange were filled with oil...thinking this was the major cause of all the mess.  Interesting to note that neither the back of the front crank pulley nor the back of the flywheel have any oil on them, so, going to leave those seals alone for now.

Shot a couple of photos below.  Just dry fit the side gaskets to see  how they look; they're the cork/butyl impregnated ones RD sells.

position question: the half-round seals...to the outside of the ridge in the pan where they locate, or to the inside?  Wasn't clear, since they stayed in the block when I pulled the pan down...

Paint question: the bluish grey Ford color doesn't seem to be around anymore...medium grey acceptable (I know...trivial question, but I'm going to paint the pan before I put it back up...)?

Now, process question: seal the new gaskets to the pan first (which would let me get the height of the front and rear cork seals nipped properly) then seal the block side of the cork (paying attention to the joint between the half round cork and the flat pan gaskets) and offer up, or some other way?  I did the former for the VCG, and it worked a treat and still no leaks...but thought I'd ask.

Oh, and planning to use flat AN360s and star washers under the bolt heads when I put all back together.  Good idea or pick up a new bag of splits?  Thinking that having the flat washer would provide a better clamping force and the star washer would keep it tight...Just a thought.

[Kendo]

Someone has mentioned the correct paint color before. So I think it's out there.

[BDA]

I remembered some more details from when I changed my gaskets. The rails go on the block first, then the cork semi-circular seals go next.

I would use some sort of lock washers since very little torque is required for holding the pan on so that the gaskets don't get squished out. I don't have a preference between star or split but I would use them without a flat washer but I doubt it makes a lot of difference if you really like to use flat washers under your lock washers.

[Bryan Boyle]

I remembered some more details from when I changed my gaskets. The rails go on the block first, then the cork semi-circular seals go next.

I would use some sort of lock washers since very little torque is required for holding the pan on so that the gaskets don't get squished out. I don't have a preference between star or split but I would use them without a flat washer but I doubt it makes a lot of difference if you really like to use flat washers under your lock washers.

Was reading Wilkins tonight (what a way to relax, right?) and his instructions make sense if the block is upside down on a stand while assembling...I'm upside down under the car working over my head looking up.  I'm going to dry fit the half moons (Wilkins' puts the smaller front seal in the block and seats it in a bed of RTV (page 133) just to see if it needs trimming (don't think so...but will find out), and though I've a 6-bolt engine, he shows the rear seal in the pan just proud (thinking the thickness of the liner side seals) of the pan flange.  Maybe I'm overthinking this...but don't want to have to do this again anytime soon.  Mulling over whether I set the gaskets in place on the block with a reasonable bead of black RTV and clamp with the pan to set up, then pull down and seal the pan to gasket the next day, or use RTV for the half moons to block and form-a-gasket for the pan to the gasket...or...

Old A&P training: use flat to even out the clamping pressure, stars to lock the bolt.  Know it doesn't make a big diff on low-torque fittings like the #4 bolts holding the pan on...but what I'm used to doing. Picked up a box of the 1/4x20 1/2" bolts to put the pan back up...new bolts, washers, stars, gaskets...how hard could it be?

[BDA]

The end cork gaskets that fit over the main caps shouldn't need trimming (I thought I remember doing that with my old Spridget race car). My engine was in the car when I did mine too. I glued the rail gaskets on first then put goo in the place where the the end corks go and pushed them on. They will cover a portion of the rail gaskets so be a bit generous with the goo there. Then a smear of more goo over the all the gaskets and then offered up the pan and screwed it in place.

I would let all the goo set with the pan in place. I don't think your plan is a problem and thinking about it, there may be an advantage in that it would be harder to squish the gaskets from over tightening the pan bolts. Just when you bolt up the pan while the RTV sets, make sure you've got it as tight as it needs. On thinking about it - it's an interesting approach but I've never done anything like that before so I'd be hesitant but if you've done it like that or was instructed to do that, I wouldn't argue.

You might want some longer 1/4-20s to start the pan with. Just a thought.

I used to always put a flat washer under a lock washer till a buddy of mine had a problem with some machinery that was shaking itself apart. He said split lock washers dug into the metal and gave out. Nylon lock nuts too. I figured then that maybe the split lock washers really worked by digging into the piece and the bolt head. I don't know that for a fact but the experience my friend had made an impression. Actually I try not to use lock washers at all but I know there isn't much of an alternative unless you want to drill the heads of all those bolts and lock wire it. That is actually something I would contemplate!

[jbcollier]

Whether you attach everything to the pan or the block of is a matter of convenience.  With the engine upside down, it’s simplest to fit to the block.  In car, the other way round.  I general glue everything in place with a dab of sealer in the corners and then add a smear of sealer to the exposed side.

Remember cork gaskets can easily be cut too short.  They should be cut a little long so they compress and make a better seal.  Silicone sealer, as long as it is oil proof is ok but NOT TOO Much.  If when it is all together, a small amount oozes out (not enough to form beads or lumps) that is about right.  Makes sure you give it at least 24 hours to set before exposing the sealer to oil.

Torque is low on pan bolts with cork gaskets.  Split lock washers (new) would probably work better.

[Pfreen]

For the oil pan and valve cover, I use ultra black oil resistant silicone sealant and I use a low torque range torque wrench.
After applying sealant,  I then torque to like 12 inch pounds and leave it for an hour.  Then creep up on the 6-8 foot-lb specified torque.  If you over squeeze the gasket, you will have to do it all over again.
You can try without the torque wrench, but is difficult to have the discipline.
After I got the torque wrench,  have never had an oil pan or valve cover leak.

[Bryan Boyle]

***DELETIA****

... drill the heads of all those bolts and lock wire it. That is actually something I would contemplate!

Have one of these at the airport...nah...that's going too far...

https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=6061B&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

[Bryan Boyle]

FWIW...found a grey close enough (hey, it's not a concours restoration...but, my SOP is if you take something off...clean it up, paint it, and replace fasteners if you can)...so, again, sanded the pan, spit prime, and a couple coats of hi temp enamel in medium grey to finish.  I'm good with it.  At least SOMETHING is looking better (even as I age a day at a time...lol...beats the alternative...)

[Grumblebuns]

So my oil pan reassembly is sometime in the future but I'm in the process of cleaning and painting it. Lets say that I have pan gasket sealed and torqued correctly. I'm at the point of installing the engine/tranny unit to the car. The engine is now sitting on a dolly with the full weight of the engine on the pan gasket. Is all of the care in torqueing the pan bolts for naught with the gasket now possibly over compressed by the engine weight or am I overthinking this again?

Second concern. The stock "baffle" seems to be inadequate. I've lost oil pressure in long right hand turns so many times that I've driven my TCS. While the pan is off, I will probably upgrade the baffle system.

[Bryan Boyle]

So my oil pan reassembly is sometime in the future but I'm in the process of cleaning and painting it. Lets say that I have pan gasket sealed and torqued correctly. I'm at the point of installing the engine/tranny unit to the car. The engine is now sitting on a dolly with the full weight of the engine on the pan gasket. Is all of the care in torqueing the pan bolts for naught with the gasket now possibly over compressed by the engine weight or am I overthinking this again?

Second concern. The stock "baffle" seems to be inadequate. I've lost oil pressure in long right hand turns so many times that I've driven my TCS. While the pan is off, I will probably upgrade the baffle system.

You're as bad as I am Joji...in the overthinking department.  I'd put an old tire off the rim on the dolly...put the engine on that...the tire will compress and take the weight...just a thought...

[BDA]

Permatex has a bunch of YouTube videos you might find interesting. This one explains how to choose which formulation to use for your application. It also shows that they recommend their gasket makers as the gasket for an oil pan (or oil pan type application). I didn’t do that when I recently replaced my oil pan gasket but I think I’ll consider it if there is a next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdykc8nMzA

[Bryan Boyle]

Permatex has a bunch of YouTube videos you might find interesting. This one explains how to choose which formulation to use for your application. It also shows that they recommend their gasket makers as the gasket for an oil pan (or oil pan type application). I didn’t do that when I recently replaced my oil pan gasket but I think I’ll consider it if there is a next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qdykc8nMzA

Thinking outside the box...seems there are 'tabs' at the end of the rail gaskets...which nicely fit into the channel that the half moons go into, and seem that the half moons fit down (up?) onto them to compress seal.  so...thinking after some extensive reading (I'd rather be accused of overthinking than missing something...) a 2-step process.  RTV is great for sealing, not so much for 'gluing' especially in the upside down world I'm working in...so...use #2 form-a-gasket (which is sticky) for the block side and place the cork gaskets (not the half-moons) into place and seat with the oil pan (no sealer on the pan side yet) lightly bolted up into the block.  Let mostly set up, pull down pan, ultra black in the half moon block channels and onto the exposed cork side rails, especially in the corners a bit, place the half moons in place, and apply a proper bead of ultra to the pan, and the exposed side of the half moons, offer up and smoothly bolt up pan (but not torque yet), check for squish out, let sit for an hour, then torque to 6-8 ft-lbs. 

Overcomplicating things?

[BDA]

Did I remember you said you were an airplane mechanic? Those guys go round and round over what kind of torque wrench is best (which for an airplane might be justified).

I don't see anything wrong with that plan but it seems overly baroque. I think oil resistant RTV (I finally found out what RTV stands for in that video!) is all you need. I think I would put goop on the engine side of the cork end pieces and put them in place when you compress everything the first time - the idea being that the RTV under the gasket and under the cork end pieces would squish together forming a single contiguous seal. Then when you go for final assy., goop the underside (you are under the car) and torque the pan.

[Bryan Boyle]

Did I remember you said you were an airplane mechanic? Those guys go round and round over what kind of torque wrench is best (which for an airplane might be justified).

Snap-on torque wrenches are all I use (and regularly get calibrated) when wrenching airframes.  Yeah, they cost one kidney and right big toe..but...that's all the chief wrench would allow in the shop (since he was the inspector...I was just a lowly journeyman mechanic...).

I don't see anything wrong with that plan but it seems overly baroque. I think oil resistant RTV (I finally found out what RTV stands for in that video!) is all you need. I think I would put goop on the engine side of the cork end pieces and put them in place when you compress everything the first time - the idea being that the RTV under the gasket and under the cork end pieces would squish together forming a single contiguous seal. Then when you go for final assy., goop the underside (you are under the car) and torque the pan.

Room Temperature Vulcanizing.  Will pick up a tube of the Ultra Black and get to work on it later.

I tend to overthink everything.  I did note that the end pieces are cut to proper length to just put it all together to allow for compressing, no trimming necessary.  Think your method will work the best...time to get underneath later, clean off the flange (hard plastic permatex scraper and some lacquer thinner on a rag), and start putting together.  Should look nice with new bolts and freshly painted pan when I get done.  As long as the bitc* doesn't leak when I'm done...  (Would be easier if it was out of the car upside down on a stand, but it is what it is...)