Thoughts on narrow tires

[jbcollier]

Today’s cars have wider tires such that the narrower tires of old can look odd.  This leads people to fit wider rims and tires for an “improved” look as well as increased cornering potential.  I can’t argue with the looks.  Frankly a Lotus 47 makes me weak in the knees as I’m sure it does you.  That said, I’m a big fan of narrower tires for a number of reasons.

First is pure cornering pleasure.  Wide tires obliterate the original, delightful and delicate, cornering feel through the steering wheel.  With narrow tires, you dance through the corners, flowing through connecting apexes with delicacy and grace.  It’s really quite magical.

Second is cornering power or force or, better said, the lack therein.  Modern, sticky, wide tires are phenomenal.  The cornering forces they can generate are stunning.  But, to be frank, absolutely, mind-numbingly boring on the street.  If you track a lot, that’s fine.  For the rest of us, why not slide around and have a hoot without putting your license at risk?  I can have fun at 20 to 30 over — stern lecture range.  Rather than 40 or 50+ where they impound your car and take you back to the station for a good rogering.  I don’t care about “winning”.   Like girls, I just want to have fun.

Lastly, hydro-planing.  My wife was driving in the pouring rain and late model 911 was coming towards her. The 911’s fat front wheels planed and the driver lifted (!!!).  He did a lovely pirouette, slid into the ditch, flipped, and dropped over a steep embankment.  It was so wet and slippery, it never left a mark.  It took a while to find him and they only did because the car started to smoke.  Thankfully he got hung up on trees on the way down and, after people moved a few large branches, he was able to crawl out a door window.

Sure he could have saved it had he known how to drive but I’d rather a narrower tire in those conditions, thank you very much.

Anyway, just another rant from an old curmudgeon.

[4129R]

I drove a 125bhp RWD Toyota Corolla GT for 300 road miles on intermediate Michelin TB20 racing tyres, back from a rally.

The tyres were equivalent to 175 section, but the speed you could go around a roundabout was just incredible.

This was back in 1985, but with RWD and a standard LSD, you could actually unstick the rears if you tried hard enough.

In the forest, it was huge fun to drive, hanging the tail out about 20 degrees.

I used Per Eklund's used forest tyres. The works Toyota Corolla GT car changed tyres for new tyres at every service halt, and gave the used tyres to club drivers like me. 10 of his used tyres lasted a whole season for me.

On a snow and ice rally I asked Per Eklund how you drive in the snow and ice without studs in the tyres. He replied to me in a strong Swedish accent "Tomorrow, we find out".

Modern wide low profile tyres don't let you unstick the rear like in the old days.

Give me a 175/70 13 tyre in preference to a 205/50 17 any day. Much more fun, if you know how to drive a car properly.

[Bainford]

Well said, John. I agree completely. Wide, modern rubber is great for commuting and highway touring, and occasionally getting jiggy with it on the country roads, but for proper, enthusiastic driving in a vintage car, skinny tires rule, for all the reasons you mentioned. I also think they look much better.

There are instances where wide tires do look good on a vintage car, but to do so, they must also be fat.

[BDA]

As someone with wide tires, I have to admit that Elans handle really great with 155 series tires!

[TurboFource]

The tires on Mecky's car look great!

[cazman]

I am going to post in more detail later about my suspension trials, but here is one point of my story. I was using Banks' uprated suspension set up (225#f and #130r springs) and could not get the car dialed in at the track. I tried tire pressure, shock settings, ride height - all the normal things. I kept getting snap oversteer at the limit. So, I called Richard and asked him what he thought. He asked what tires I had. I told him 195/50/15 and 205/50/15. He said that when they tried "low profile" tires like that they could never get the car to "settle". Kept getting snap. He said to move to 185s all around and larger side wall. He said that the car needs that flex.

[Clifton]

I kept getting snap oversteer at the limit. So, I called Richard and asked him what he thought. He asked what tires I had. I told him 195/50/15 and 205/50/15. He said that when they tried "low profile" tires like that they could never get the car to "settle". Kept getting snap. He said to move to 185s all around and larger side wall. He said that the car needs that flex.

Snap oversteer is a mid engine curse. I run a low pro very staggered set up 40mm wider in the rear with much more rear weight. Lift quick while turning near the limit and it will step out and is so hard to catch. It's hard to get used to not lifting  quick and giving more throttle when it happens.

[Richard48Y]

<Grumble, complain> Something more where I need a track to practice on.
Of course our local track folded a few years ago.
A new investor paid a something like Six Million to take it over and had real plans, just before the China Virus hit. 
Now, nothing happening.

[Pfreen]

I say, if you like big wide tires, put on big wide tires.  If you like skinny tires, put on skinny tires.
Few of us Europa owners race, so it is mostly a personal asthetics thing with some handling preferences.

I personally have the stock size tires and I like the look and the handling.  But, I also used to have the 205-60-13 rear, 195-60-13 front and I liked that look too.

I like the Lotus aluminum wheels so I have not gone with 15" wheels and tires.

If you are racing, the rules, and how you want the car to drive on the track or course dictate your selection.

[EuropaTC]

I say, if you like big wide tires, put on big wide tires.  If you like skinny tires, put on skinny tires.
Few of us Europa owners race, so it is mostly a personal asthetics thing with some handling preferences.

I personally have the stock size tires and I like the look and the handling.  But, I also used to have the 205-60-13 rear, 195-60-13 front and I liked that look too.
I like the Lotus aluminum wheels so I have not gone with 15" wheels and tires.

If you are racing, the rules, and how you want the car to drive on the track or course dictate your selection.

I think that sums up my views very well.

I've had 165/70 & 175/70 (5" Cosmics, as bought) then 175/185 and now 195/205 in 50 series. I prefer the wider tyres on stiffer suspension & bigger brakes, but I only ever drive on public roads and usually in dry conditions. If I ever got to the snap break point I'd be travelling so fast that when they dig me out I'd be going to jail.  When it's wet then I go much slower, probably slower than I could do with the 165/175 combo but...    I don't bother about it.

Personally I think most (all ?) mid engined cars will react in a sudden break away if you push the design hard enough. You increase the ultimate limit but when it goes you travelling much faster and have less time to react, hence it's a bigger surprise and due to the extra speed, much harder to control.  Thinner tyres get you to that point sooner with less ultimate grip, you're going slower and have more time.

I remember when the SW20 model MR2 came out over here, several journalists panned it for "sudden breakaway" compared with the previous AW10 MR2. I've had both and never got to the breakaway point with the SW20 because it was so darned fast (on public roads). Maybe you could get that on a track, but on the road ? not legally or even close.

Ditto with the S1 Elise, it didn't make headlines but there were loads crashed in the early years. Short wheelbase, wide tyres griping like s### right up until it doesn't. Lotus reduced the front tyre width with the S2 to make it more predictable by going into understeer rather than oversteer.

Finally, after reading that lot you might be surprised to hear I keep the Elan on 155/80 series tyres and despite having fitted narrower springs at the rear, I won't be going to 175/70's any time soon.  On that car, thinner tyres make me feel like a driving god......

Brian

[jbcollier]

Agreed, each to his own.

Glad you’re cautious when it’s raining and I mainly wanted to get people to store that thought in the back of their minds for when they do encounter the wet stuff.

Last leg of the trip today.  Another 5k+ trip and more work and mods to do before the next!

[europa88]

I say, if you like big wide tires, put on big wide tires.  If you like skinny tires, put on skinny tires.
Few of us Europa owners race, so it is mostly a personal asthetics thing with some handling preferences.

I personally have the stock size tires and I like the look and the handling.  But, I also used to have the 205-60-13 rear, 195-60-13 front and I liked that look too.
I like the Lotus aluminum wheels so I have not gone with 15" wheels and tires.

If you are racing, the rules, and how you want the car to drive on the track or course dictate your selection.

I think that sums up my views very well.

I've had 165/70 & 175/70 (5" Cosmics, as bought) then 175/185 and now 195/205 in 50 series. I prefer the wider tyres on stiffer suspension & bigger brakes, but I only ever drive on public roads and usually in dry conditions. If I ever got to the snap break point I'd be travelling so fast that when they dig me out I'd be going to jail.  When it's wet then I go much slower, probably slower than I could do with the 165/175 combo but...    I don't bother about it.

Personally I think most (all ?) mid engined cars will react in a sudden break away if you push the design hard enough. You increase the ultimate limit but when it goes you travelling much faster and have less time to react, hence it's a bigger surprise and due to the extra speed, much harder to control.  Thinner tyres get you to that point sooner with less ultimate grip, you're going slower and have more time.

I remember when the SW20 model MR2 came out over here, several journalists panned it for "sudden breakaway" compared with the previous AW10 MR2. I've had both and never got to the breakaway point with the SW20 because it was so darned fast (on public roads). Maybe you could get that on a track, but on the road ? not legally or even close.

Ditto with the S1 Elise, it didn't make headlines but there were loads crashed in the early years. Short wheelbase, wide tyres griping like s### right up until it doesn't. Lotus reduced the front tyre width with the S2 to make it more predictable by going into understeer rather than oversteer.

Finally, after reading that lot you might be surprised to hear I keep the Elan on 155/80 series tyres and despite having fitted narrower springs at the rear, I won't be going to 175/70's any time soon.  On that car, thinner tyres make me feel like a driving god......

Brian

Interesting that you had both MR2 models Brian. I worked for a Toyota Main dealer back in the day and had extensive use of both, including Donnington race circuit on the AW10 launch day. The AW10 was definitely more on the Europa side of handling, as although a transverse mid engine it was a better balanced layout. As I recall the SW20 had its powerplant further back over the rear axle line ( More 9111 ish) and had wide sticky rubber to compensate.

I have had my Europa long enough to try many combinations of tyre and I think the most fun was on standard 70 series tyres 175 front and 185 rears. Although I have been told they're even more fun on crossplies...

But I cant argue with Richard Winter and his advice on 13 inch 185's all round just seem to work for me. I run semi slicks and although I have to buy a couple of rear Toyo R888r's every year or so  its still very predictable on breakaway...I guess that's why I get through the tyres. I have just put on some Nankang NS-2R's to see if they last a bit longer!

[EuropaTC]

Interesting that you had both MR2 models Brian. I worked for a Toyota Main dealer back in the day and had extensive use of both, including Donnington race circuit on the AW10 launch day. The AW10 was definitely more on the Europa side of handling, as although a transverse mid engine it was a better balanced layout. As I recall the SW20 had its powerplant further back over the rear axle line ( More 9111 ish) and had wide sticky rubber to compensate.

After Lotus, the MR2's have been my all time favourites.  I really, really wanted an AW10 when they came out but at that point in our lives we couldn't afford new cars and in the 80s I had the Elan & Marcos, so the "other" car had to be sensible with more doors and seats.   By '93 I decided to sell the Marcos and we bought a new SW20 just after they revised the suspension to counter the early critics. I loved it, apart from the rear tyre wear rate. I'd never had a car which went through rear tyres in under 9k before and if you recall they were Yokohama and virtually only the MR2 used them. Not cheap.....

The AW10 finally came along as a rolling restoration after I retired and we both loved the car. It did loads of miles, drove it around Scotland on holidays, just loved it.  I agree, it felt very Lotus-like but I was chasing corrosion around the car so we eventually gave up and part ex'd it for a 97/98 (?) model SW20. We had that for a long time and only sold that for the space to put a Cayman.

Crazy thought it might sound, that was a hard decision but I decided it was an itch that must be scratched. Even now, when I see an AW10 I can't help thinking.......

Brian

[europa88]

"Crazy thought it might sound, that was a hard decision but I decided it was an itch that must be scratched. Even now, when I see an AW10 I can't help thinking......."

I know what you mean 

There could be a couple of AW10's around unregistered in the UK with delivery mileage only. As to my knowledge we sold 3 to a local collector in Oxford with Toyotas blessing. 2 T-bars and a fixed roof model.
Apologies for the non Lotus content.