Author Topic: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors  (Read 1116 times)

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Offline kram350kram

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Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« on: Saturday,February 12, 2022, 06:58:37 PM »
Have never done veil. Any advice or tips? Sanded to bare fiberglass with 80 grit, no filler. Thanks

Offline BDA

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,February 12, 2022, 09:22:25 PM »
It's been a while since I did it. I don't remember there was anything that was particularly different about it. As I remember, after I got the panel pretty flat, I painted resin on the panel and then laid the veil on it stippling it with a throw-away paint brush - though a stippling roller would probably be better. I made sure that the resin completely soaked the veil and that the veil was completely flat with no wrinkles or bubbles, etc. I let that set - probably overnight - and then sanded it with a DA orbital sander. I probably started with something like 320 and I think I got down to 600 grit. I only did one layer of veil but two would probably be better. I think I would lay the second after the first layer cured.

I did not paint my car. I gave it to a shop. They had it for a long time and when I got it back, it was great. To my untrained eye, it looked like it was flat when I gave it to them and that all that would be required would be some glazing putty in a very few places. They appeared to spread some of their own filler over at least part of the car because some of it is visible around the edges of the water drain holes underneath the bumper in the bottom of the body. I mention this because it made me wonder if my car was not as flat as I thought. Maybe they put that filler everywhere. Or maybe, they were jammed up and it just took a long time for them to finish it. I don't know the extent of what they did.

Offline Kendo

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,February 13, 2022, 07:06:55 AM »
Adding to BDAs steps, I always rollout the wet veil with one of these rollers. https://www.fibreglast.com/product/Aluminum_Rollers_129?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIv6qI5Pn89QIVeB-tBh0G9A-kEAQYBCABEgLKqfD_BwE

Offline dakazman

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #3 on: Sunday,February 13, 2022, 07:26:22 AM »
  I will be testing two different types of veil shortly . BDA covered it basically and Kendo offered a great tool to spread the resin. The site where he lead you has a learning center , with a wealth of tutorials.
It’s also where I have my order in. Pull up veil.
  Also pick up some acetone for clean up .
Dakazman

Offline BDA

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #4 on: Sunday,February 13, 2022, 08:53:06 AM »
Stippling rollers I mentioned and Kendo pointed you to are no doubt the “best” way of doing it but a guy who helped me with some of my glass work had a great expression: “smell resin, buy new tools!” If you don’t soak your roller in a bucket of acetone before your resin starts to kick (harden), that roller has probably reached the end of its useful life.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 07:27:12 AM »
To veil or not to veil . . .

It's worthwhile recognising that veil's intended purpose was that it be applied as the first layer of glass against the gelcoat in a mould. The idea being that the fine veil would help block out the courser fibres of subsequent layers of CSM in the final laminate.

As such, applying veil to an existing laminate would be outside spec. That said, I'm perfectly happy using something out of spec but I reckon we need to be aware of what might come along with that.

I like to think that a layer of veil should catch & cover any number of tiny cracks that are effectively lost to the naked eye in the fog of sanding and which may only show up twelve months after painting.
That's the theory but I have no empirical evidence to back this up.

The issues I see with veil surrounds the material itself.
The common veil available from retailers here in Oz is roughly 25 or 30g/m2 . . that's pretty thin.

Once applied, the newly created surface must then be prepared for whatever is next - primer, high build etc.
That inevitably means sanding the surface sufficiently to produce a key and to also eliminate the wax left on the surface by the resin.
The question then arises as to how much sanding and with what grit is safe so as to not penetrate the veil layer while also removing the wax. I don't see a good answer to those competing requirements.

For my part, I purchased a 100 metre roll of 'battery separator' material which is the same stuff but about 80g/m2 in weight which makes it easier to handle - less wispy. I also thin down the resin with acetone which gets the glass/resin ratio to a better proportion.

Serrated rollers are excellent but they tend to kinda rattle over the hard surface when applying just a thin layer of veil.
I've not used a stippling roller but, yeah, keep a large open topped tin of acetone handy.

My $0.02 worth.

Offline BDA

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #6 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 07:46:22 AM »
Gavin, you certainly know a lot more about this than I but I’ve assumed that the purpose of laying veil is two fold. One, as a “carrier” for resin and thus provide a sort of replacement for the gel coat as well as serve as a filler and two, to add strength to the surface so as to halt any cracks not already caught and help prevent future cracks.

Does that make any sense?

Offline Kendo

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #7 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 08:42:09 AM »
BDA, that’s my impression of veil. But Kram makes a good point that it is being used out of spec.

The first veil I did was on the front trunk. Someone had covered the whole top with cloth, which provided my first experience of print through years before I started repainting. So I veiled over that. My mistake was, to make it not bunch up over the curve of the frunk, I laid in two pieces, overlapped ~1/2” down the centerline. That small overlap was hell to sand down. I think, if the underlying surface is smooth and fair, you are unlikely to sand through the veil.

By the way, I don’t use the resin with wax. If it’s the final layer, I either wipe down with acetone to remove the final sticky layer, or sand it, gumming up one piece of sandpaper, then remember to wipe down with acetone.

Offline Clifton

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #8 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 02:47:50 PM »
I can say from first hand experience, If it's a veil mat, it can and will print through even if it's thin.  It's been a few years but I used the thinnest I could find. I used an epoxy primer, sandable primer then paint. In the right light you can see the fine mat. If you plan to paint it a dark color I wouldn't even think about it. If it is chop strand veil, it would be safer but offer zero strength. Not that a thin mat veil offers anything. If you have spider cracks, I used a dremel with some fine tipped diamond bits. Cheap on Ebay. Ground deep and filled with a mix of milled fiber. It's very hard. None of them came back.

veils are better suited if making a part from a mold and using as your first layer.

Offline dakazman

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #9 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 02:48:43 PM »
  Received my two test veil pieces today. It’s to cover what I think is a chemical stripper over the bonnet.  You can see from the picture that it was left on to long and ate into the lower fibers. Hopefully I’ll get to it soon but I need all my garage space to lay down my wiring harness and attach it to the facia .

Dakazman
 

Offline kram350kram

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #10 on: Saturday,February 19, 2022, 06:31:59 PM »
Well, I used 10mil stranded veil on my hood with polyester resin. Prior, the surface was pretty rough, open fibers, air holes and pits, now its pretty smooth. I veil'ed the underside too and I can say the entire hood is much stiffer. I used too much resin on the top but it all sanded out with 40 then 80. It's pretty smooth ready for body work, but I will skim coat with polyester filler and poly high build slick sand. I used less resin on the backside and that worked out much better, dabbed on with a brush vs pour on and spread. Roller worked well to get the air out and flatten. I think the veil falls below the resin some as no fibers were pulled up, even after a 40 grit sanding. Hard to see in the photo but happy with the improvement. Other photos just for fun.   

Offline GavinT

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #11 on: Sunday,February 20, 2022, 12:10:29 AM »
Hey, I'm certainly no expert, BDA, but I do find experimenting with this stuff interesting and fibreglass is such a forgiving medium. If we look around at the number of different methods people use, the vast majority of them seem to work just fine.
I've come full circle on some things and outright abandoned others.

I must say I'm not a believer in the gel coat theory. Some insist it's there and others point to a lineup of grey bodies outside the factory and say that proves it.
I've been down to that grey layer on a number of bodies and it sure doesn't sand like gel coat. Gel coat is as hard as a rock and the grey stuff sands like paint.

I doubt it matters much who is right or wrong on the gel coat score because if you've got a crack, you'll be grinding into the laminate in any case. I also think we've been somewhat led up the garden path re gel coat. Historically, most of the fibreglass repair advice has come from the boating people. Gel coat is important for boats as they potentially sit in water all day long.

How many actual gel coat issues have we seen over the years on Lotus cars? Any?
I reckon it's a bit like the notion that a 336 gearbox can only take 150HP. Anyone ever seen a broken 336 gearbox?

Anyway, I've probably gone slightly fundamentalist (radicalised?) on the whole gel coat thing.
If we accept that veil provides near zero reinforcement value, then adding more resin (or gel coat) makes the whole laminate weaker as a structure and consequently, more prone to cracking. The OEM laminate is quite thin to begin with.
In practice, though, we don't see veiled panels failing all over the place either. As I say . . a very forgiving medium.

Somewhere along the line I intend to experiment with veil using spray polyester (Slick Sand or the like) instead of polyester resin and applied with a brush. I can't see why it wouldn't work and kill a few birds with one stone.
The main advantage I see is the ease of blocking and you're automatically ready for further coats of spray polyester. Also eliminates the resident wax issue.
Am I mad? Did I miss something?
Thoughts anyone?


My tip for newbies contemplating any of this is to have some cheap baby powder (talc) at the ready. Inevitably when laminating fibreglass, you'll get resin on your disposable gloves from fiddling with wet pieces.
If you tip some talc into your hands and rub them together, the talc will soak up the resin and your hands are effectively dry again. Then, you can carry on without making any more mess and pulling sticky threads everywhere.


Offline GavinT

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #12 on: Sunday,February 20, 2022, 12:17:51 AM »
I think what Clifton's saying is to be cautious putting veil over an existing layer of woven cloth? - please correct me if I've misinterpreted.

I've also had the issue of woven cloth showing through (my fault). The print-through seemed to come and go. I suspect it shows up more readily on hot days so I'm speculating it has to do with different thermal expansion rates - not sure. I also doubt putting veil over the woven cloth will fix it.

If using unwaxed resin, it's possible to apply a coat of PVA release agent and it'll harden up all the way through.

D'man, I'm interested in what you make of the "Synthetic Surfacing Veil".
I believe it's a fair bit thicker than veil.

There's also a 'knitted' version of veil that's much easier to handle - labelled as "Knit Veil" in the pic.

Offline Clifton

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #13 on: Sunday,February 20, 2022, 04:52:15 AM »
I think what Clifton's saying is to be cautious putting veil over an existing layer of woven cloth? - please correct me if I've misinterpreted.

It's not the veil that is a problem but a veil mat that prints through. If stranded, chop strand (CSM) is used, it doesn't but CSM has much less strength. I used bondo type spreaders to squeegee the extra resin out, let set then rolled a finish layer with wax on top like a gel coat so it can be sanded without going into the fiber. If you sand into a csm it doesn't matter but sand into mat and it's a problem.

I read the strength on everything then bought samples, did tear tests, used poly, cured and tear test. My hood and nose had fracture cracks from a PO hit and a csm veil wasn't going to add anything of crack resistance so I used a matted veil. I also did the rear lid. The roof and doors used csm veil. only the matted veil showed months later.

Pic of what's left of some of my samples

Offline dakazman

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Re: Fiberglass veil on boot, engine cover, doors
« Reply #14 on: Sunday,February 20, 2022, 04:57:14 PM »


D'man, I'm interested in what you make of the "Synthetic Surfacing Veil".
I believe it's a fair bit thicker than veil.

There's also a 'knitted' version of veil that's much easier to handle - labelled as "Knit Veil" in the pic.

 Gavin, I agree with you , full circle, for sure. 
 I’ll keep you posted as soon as possible with the experiments.
Dave