Oil Pan Seal

[LeftAngle]

Getting the S2’s oil pan in place without screwing up the gasketing is a difficult and frustrating task for me.  I’ve used several brands of gasket compounds to help seal the multitude pathways created by bolts, used alignment pins and created multiple pan lifting concoctions, but to date, no real luck.  You can see in the picture that the pan is still leaking through numerous bolt seal free areas around the perimeter.   By the time I raise the pan in place, align it (even with dowel alignment pins) any sealant has pretty much been scraped away.l and I’m back to square one.

When I had the same issue sealing the valve cover gasket but with a narrow mating surface area instead of bolt hole numbers, I resolved the problem nicely with a cork gasket and grand amounts of blue silicone.  The secret with silicone (on boats at least) is don’t tighten the components all the way until the silicone has cured.  This worked beautifully with my valve cover and I’ll be doing the same thing with the oil pan.  I’ll be making a few long 6mm (I believe) screw in alignment pins that won’t fall out at the wrong time and customizing a hydraulic lift to carry the pan back up when the time comes… Wish me luck.
Bruce F

[LeftAngle]

Correction: The bolts are M7

[jbcollier]

Couple of comments.

- be careful with excessive amounts of "silicone" sealer.  It can break free inside the engine and plug important passages.  I've seen a number of engines go bang that way.

- alignment pins are tricky to use with the oil pan as the pan has to approach the block a little sideways to fit in by the flywheel.

- glue the gasket in place onto the oil pan.  This make lining things up a breeze.

Now the good, or maybe bad, news.  It's probably not your gasket that's leaking.  I have the same oil pan and had the oil drips in the same place.  I had it on and off about 10 times, even after I figured out the problem as it took a while to get the right solution.  Those oil pans are notorious for porous castings.  Worse, now that you have had oil in it, the oil has seeped into the aluminium as well.  First you need to get it "boiled out" in a mildly caustic solution.  This is to remove as much of the oil as possible, especially where it has soaked in.  Then get it powder coated inside the oil pan.  My coater was an old racer and recognized the problem right away.  After a long time boiling it out, he laid in an extra thick coating.  No leaks after that

[LeftAngle]

Thanks JB.  When I first got the pan, I covered the inside with a red compound that required an oven to cure it.  Don’t remember the name, but its purpose was to seal the pores as your powder coating did.  The oil on mine can be seen oozing off a number of the bolt heads and is consistent.  I’m still betting it’s my substandard mounting that’s the culpret.  As fas as the transaxle interference goes, I learned taking the gear housing plate off and replacing it along with the pan eliminates the need for doing the Limbo.  I’ll be making an angled lift mount to hold the pan parallel with the block as it’s being raised (the rear of the car is raised high on jacks so everything is at an angle).  Hopefully that along with reliable pins will make my task easier.

Your warning about silicone is a bit more troubling.  I will research that and see what options I have.  I like silicone for it’s post cure compressibility.  The low torque requirements don’t leave much working room to insure a good seal.

I’ll report back once the task is completed and the car has run a bit… for a grade. 😁
Thanks again.  Your expertise is invaluable.
Bruce

[jbcollier]

Yeah, I used that red stuff as well, name escapes me.  I tried it twice as I worked through the issue.  Maybe it worked for you, here's hoping.

If it is dripping off the pan bolt heads, and they are not loose, look up, way up.  Shine a light along the timing cover, head and valve cover. Run a hand along the various surfaces feeling for wet oil.  I have an aluminium valve cover as well and its seal is also a bit tricky.  On mine, now that the oil pan is sorted, if there are drips on the pan bolts, then it's running down from the valve cover.

Low toque is a problem on the oil pan bolts due to engine vibration.  If you end up going that way, use "star" type, anti-vibration lock washers.

[LeftAngle]

The red stuff failed.  Sheets of it were peeling off and blocking the screened pickup.  Surprised I was getting any oil pressure at all.  I’ll cut the oil filters apart and check for it in the oil.  It’s as likely as not my application was faulty but I don’t trust it anymore.   I’m removing all trace of it now by scraping and sand blasting.

When I put myself through school I ran radiographic tests for the construction industry and I was pretty good at identifying internal defects.  Xray testing is out of my wheelhouse now but I ran over areas of my pan with a microscope.  Porosity comes in 2 types. Gas and stress.  Gasses in the aluminum mix get trapped and appear as bubbles.  They play no part in seepage through the aluminum.  Cracks are caused by unequal cooling after the part is formed.  Where thick and thin walls meet on a part can cause cracking if the manufacturer isn’t cautious and hasn’t accounted for it.  I found a few minor stress cracks on my casting.  The red arrow points to one of the longer ones.  The blue arrows are surface gas porosity.  The ball point pen is for scale.

The odds of these cracks passing all the way through the 3/8” thick aluminum is minimal.  10W40 wt oil being able to squeeze through any that do is also minimal.
I’m betting I’ll be OK with the casting as is and will pass on powder coating or vacuum sealing.  I’ll do old school and trust the casting.  It’ll be at least a week before I get it back together but I’ll check in when it’s done.

[GavinT]

I'd be rather wary of sandblasting any surface internal to the engine.

Was the red stuff Glyptal?

http://www.glyptal.com/glyptal_products.html

[LeftAngle]

Yes.  That’s it.  Not sandblasting but scraped with modified chisels and wire brushes.  The Glyptal really sticks well to the steel insert (don’t know why I painted it).  Probably because it heated better when curing.  I’m taking a break and working on my sails while the weather is nice but should be ready to reinstall it by the end of the week or early next.
Bruce

[LeftAngle]

FAIL!
If anyone is interested, my oil pan leak adventure didn’t go too well.  After scraping the Glyptol out of the pan, re-sealing it and jacking it back into position, the “ping” I mistook for the clutch cable interfering with the raising pan turned out to be the steel splash plate not aligning with the oil pickup and snapping the brazing that modified it to fit the shorter pan.  I wasn’t getting any oil pressure because the pickup was lying in the bottom of the pan.  I feel dumb and will be enlarging the hole in the plate above the pickup… and listening for “pings” when it goes back together.

I should be back on the road just in time for the winter weather.   

[BDA]

Sorry to hear about your problems, LeftAngle, but unfortunately these kinds of setbacks are part part of car development. It’s all part of the challenge. Feel good that you discovered the problem and arrived at a solution.

[LeftAngle]

Quite likely the thing I love most about the Europa are the problem solving detours it keeps putting me through.  They’ve expanded on my joy of design and increased both my confidence and skill levels in areas I never expected to visit.  The car is home now in a temperature controlled garage and the show season is winding down.   I’ll be able to take my time getting everything sorted out and improve on the quality of my previous work… maybe even paint it Viper Red. 😁

[BDA]

That's the spirit! I agree completely! My Europa is the perfect retirement project! There is always something to fix, add, take off, or improve.

[TurboFource]

I just hope my Europa doesn't turn into my retirement project!!!

[jbcollier]

This winter my Europa project list is:

- wireless steering wheel buttons/paddles for signals, high/low, horn and single wipe  (my knees auto cancel the signals and dim the highs)
- uprated engine mounts
- fit balanced half-shafts
- fit alloy wheels that look exactly like the steel originals (even take hub caps!)
- experiment with fitting vented rotors (have to see if the new wheels will accommodate them

That's all, so far...

[BDA]

I'd never heard of wireless steering wheel controls (other than for radios). Is this the sort of thing you're talking about (https://www.boostitperformance.com/product/cartek-wireless-steering-wheel-control-system/)?