Author Topic: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion  (Read 29676 times)

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Online BDA

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #15 on: Saturday,March 15, 2025, 08:41:35 AM »
i have an early version of Richard's twin link suspension so I can't comment on his later version. If the upper link is mounted high enough on the upright, you might be able to get a bigger CV joint there but most of the twin links I've seen don't allow it. Replacing a CV joint isn't that big of a deal so if it has a short life, it's less of an inconvenience than say replacing a u-joint.

The EMPI Type 1 stub axles are longer than the stock stub axles by about an inch, maybe less. I would think that most wheels would be able to accommodate that. Using the Type 1 stub axle will require the use of the 94mm (I may have called them 90mm earlier) CV joints.

The problem I'm having to deal with now is a hub. Jmarkusic suggested machining a blank drum (https://socalautoparts.com/product/brake-drum-rear-blank-pattern/). My machinist was concerned about a cast hub being brittle and didn't want to risk it. I would note that the stock hubs are cast (I don't know if they are iron or steel). Looking at the stock hubs, they are beefier around the splines so I'm a little concerned about the torque they'll handle. I plan on calling SoCal Auto Parts to ask them how they are used. and I'll report back.

Another option is these centers (https://dansperformanceparts.com/jamar-db-center-6-bolt-splined-long-axle/). They come in 5 and 6 bolt flavors. They are actually centers that are meant to be bolted on a larger, more complicated hub. The idea would be to machine a plate to be bolted onto those centers to accept wheel studs. Because of the OD of the center (about 4.2", they would have to be machined to make room for the wheel studs. If you designed the plate well, I believe this would be bullet proof but it's expensive - not just the price of the centers but also the steel round to machine the plate.

There are other options like rear brake discs but I'm not sure they are any better options than the blank brake drum. Unless you make your own hub (which would require machining your own splines!), there aren't any other options for a hub that I've seen.

Measuring axle length

I asked the guy (a guy?) at Blind Chicken Racing (their website was referenced by Jmarkusic: http://blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/axles_and_cvs.htm) about that and here is our conversation:

Quote
me: First, is the listed length of the axle the distance between the circlip grooves? or the total length of the axle?

Then, how should I measure the length of axle I'll need? I assume I would measure between the outside face of the inner race of the outer joint and the inside face of the inner race of the inner joint. Should I position the inner race in any particular way (eg. each inner race in the center of the joint or one inner race at the outside and on at the inside of the joint)?  Since this is for a street car, I won't need to accommodate a lot of plunge.

mark: Axles are measured in total length.  Most aftermarket axles have extended splines so they can be trimmed to fit the application.

To measure axle length, assemble your axles with stubs and put your trans in place with flanges installed.  With the stub and flange horizontal to each other measure from the bottom of the flange cup to the bottom of the stub cup and subtract 1/4” to 3/8” depending on how much flex you get with your trailing arm.  You could go a bit more in your case as travel is not important.

me: From your description, it appears you are saying that the "faces" of the CV housing are the important distances. Because I'm not using a VW transaxle, I have tranny drive flanges that are fabricated and as it turns out, the "cup" of the flange is much shallower than the stub axle flange (I'm using EMPI stub axles). I've attached a pictures. Should I deduct, say 0.2", from the measurement to mimic a deeper cup dimension?

mark: The old school way of checking for axle length is getting a wooden dowel and trimming it until you have ¼” of clearance for the axle.

I sent Mark the photo of my drive flange depth to give him an idea of what I'm dealing with. I've attached other pictures of it in case it would help you fabricate your own (Thank you SwiftDB4). If I were to make a change to them, I would make a taller "lip" around the circumference to better support the CV joint. I'm not sure if I understood Mark's answer so I included the entire conversation.

I also asked him about the capacity of the CV joints. Here's what he said:

Quote
With bug CV’s (94mm) you can probably do 100hp as long as you don’t try and pop the clutch.  A four cylinder engine is more forgiving as it has less rotating mass.  You put a V6 in there you will probably blow the CV’s or axles (or both) if you are on it.  If you can stuff 944 CV’s in there it will take a lot more power.

Offline TurboFource

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #16 on: Saturday,March 15, 2025, 09:06:29 AM »
BDA,
There are chromoly hubs on EBay .... https://www.ebay.com/itm/126125151369

Not sure this is what you are looking for but they may have it...
« Last Edit: Saturday,March 15, 2025, 09:12:24 AM by TurboFource »
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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #17 on: Saturday,March 15, 2025, 12:00:12 PM »
Yeah, those are the "centers" I mentioned and linked to at dansperformanceparts.com but at a slightly better price.

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #18 on: Sunday,March 16, 2025, 05:18:52 PM »
I got an email from SwiftDB4 and he pointed me to this (https://www.taylor-race.com/products/94mm-standard-lobro-33-splined-cv-joint). Thanks Swift! It didn't occur to me that "FT" in the "Common applications" refers to Hewland FT200 transaxles used in 240 hp Formula Atlantic cars which should handle most any engine someone is likely to put in a Europa (except kram350kram) so if I have to replace a CV joint, I'll replace it with one of those. I would advise them for anyone starting down this road.

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #19 on: Monday,March 17, 2025, 05:18:15 PM »
I just talked with a guy at SoCal Auto Parts that sells the blank rear brake drums. He wasn't very specific or technical with me (I may have expected more than I should have) but he did say that they are used in high performance applications - including drag racing and dune buggies. I said I was most concerned with stress in cornering and he was dismissive of my concerns. I figure the beating that is most similar to the beating we might give our cars is a dune buggy (think of a buggy taking a hard turn in deep sand).

I've done some measurements but I can only compare them to the hubs I have which were made by Richard at Banks (they are very stout steel pieces) and pictures of the stock hubs (which are cast (steel? iron? - I'm guessing iron). They seem like they should be stout enough. I would also mention that while the Jensen Competition Manual suggests replacing the stub axles regularly, there is no mention of any worry about the hubs, which if I remember the production car rules from that period correctly, were required to be stock.

In any case, I also asked a buddy of mine who was one of Shell Oil Company's rotating machinery experts what he thought. I haven't heard back yet but will post his comments when I do.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday,March 19, 2025, 09:54:09 AM »
Unfortunately he couldn't remember which BMW the stub axles and hubs came from.

If I recall correctly, Richard used BMW 2002ti or 2000 axles.
I have his installation notes around here somewhere.

The problem I'm having to deal with now is a hub. Jmarkusic suggested machining a blank drum (https://socalautoparts.com/product/brake-drum-rear-blank-pattern/). My machinist was concerned about a cast hub being brittle and didn't want to risk it. I would note that the stock hubs are cast (I don't know if they are iron or steel). Looking at the stock hubs, they are beefier around the splines so I'm a little concerned about the torque they'll handle. I plan on calling SoCal Auto Parts to ask them how they are used. and I'll report back.

Agreed, I'd be concerned about machining the outer drum section from the hub. I expect the drums would be cast iron. I'd say wheel stud support is reliant on that drum being present
The stock hubs are a steel forging.

There are quite a few flavours of VW CV joints (link below) and be mindful that BMW spec. CV's sometimes call for 8mm bolts and some use 10mm bolts.

https://www.jbugs.com/VW-Tech-Article-CV-Joint-Specs.html

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #21 on: Wednesday,March 19, 2025, 11:46:16 AM »
If you find out which BMW stub axles Richard used, please post it. It won't help me but it could help someone else. The nice thing about using BMW parts is that they have a normal hub which Richard said he modified for his conversion.

Forged steel makes a lot more sense than cast! Thanks for the correction. That pretty much solidifies my decision to use the hub centers I mentioned (https://dansperformanceparts.com/jamar-db-center-6-bolt-splined-long-axle/) with a 1/2 plate turned to fit and take wheel studs.

Thanks for the CV joint information! I looked back at what Richard said in his email to me about his conversion. He used Alfa Romeo (Spica) CV joints. He didn't remember what size but he was sure it was less than 100mm. He drove his car hard (as you might expect  :) ) for 20 years without issues.

Offline GavinT

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #22 on: Thursday,March 20, 2025, 08:26:11 AM »
G'day, BDA,

Found it . . . but lo and behold, my computer search also brought up instances on the interwebs. It looks like Richard had already uploaded the procedure to lotus-europa.com - (link below)

http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/suspension/BMW%20STUB%20AXLE%20AUG%202005.html


Re the hub, are these suitable?

https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/au/311501581-rear-wheel-hub-4-130-pcd-left-or-right.html

Looking at Jmarkusic's hubs, it seems like they may be similar. It also looks like his are cast, so I dunno but they also appear to be decently thick. In my mind, a brake drum wouldn't be all that thick.

Jmarkusic mentions spline differences, too. Are Type 1 and Type 3 different in the spline department?  :confused:

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #23 on: Thursday,March 20, 2025, 09:23:18 AM »
Thanks for the links to Richard's BMW stub axle conversion. I had seen that long ago but at the time it was just a curiosity. I also don't think I appreciated what he was describing. That will make a good fall back if I can't get my hubs to work. I'm a bit worried that my center will be hardened and will have to be ground rather than just machined. I really hope to be able to use the EMPI stub axles since that would allow me to take the drive train apart without a press or taking the radius arms off.

I got one of those hubs. My machinist didn't like it because the rib that reinforces the places where the wheel bolts are would have to be cut down more than he'd like because the wheel studs are on a smaller bolt circle. I had assumed they were cast but I have a call into the place I bought mine to see if they can give me some information. It turns out there are two other similar hubs but I'm not sure that they are any better. They still have more of the one I have but the others are out of stock at the moment.


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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday,March 25, 2025, 04:52:05 PM »
I have found the perfect hubs for the VW conversion! A company called ISP West sells chrome moly hubs with thick sections that take the place of the Type 3 rear hubs and are designed for high HP applications. (https://vwispwest.com/rear-hub-4-x-130mm-ga-501581/). Before I took the rear suspension apart I measured the distance from the face of the hub to the brake caliper mount (I have rear discs) and using a couple of spacers and the type 3 hub I have, I'm within about 0.020" so those hubs would be perfect! Unfortunately, they don't have any in stock and they're looking for a machine shop to make more. They hope to have some "sooner rather than later." We'll see how long "sooner" is.

They are really pretty - hard anodized and with two sets of wheel stud holes, for VW bolt circle, of course. It occurs to me that since if I were to order a pair before any are made, they might be willing to make them without the anodizing and either blank or holes for the Europa bolt circle.

Offline TurboFource

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday,March 25, 2025, 06:12:53 PM »
Hmmmmm …. hard anodizing is used on aluminum, magnesium etc. not 4130 steel, are you sure it’s not a black oxide finish?
« Last Edit: Tuesday,March 25, 2025, 06:15:40 PM by TurboFource »
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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday,March 25, 2025, 06:28:33 PM »
Yeah, I thought they were confused. I’ve known anodizing was for aluminum but thought I had heard of a reference to anodizing other materials. Maybe I should have said I was quoting them.

But now you have me curious. This is what Wikipedia says about anodizing:

Quote
Electrolytic passivation process used to increase the thickness of the natural oxide layer on the surface of metal parts

So maybe you can anodize steel, though it sounds more like bluing when we’re talking about steel, but “hard anodizing?” Should we expect the anodizing to be harder than steel? That seems unlikely…

Offline GavinT

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday,March 26, 2025, 12:23:24 AM »
Yeah, here's another one (link below) of their similar bespoke parts which they describe as:

Finish: Black Zinc

https://vwispwest.com/rear-hub-5-x-130mm-ga-501581p/

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Re: Andy's and Joe's CV joint conversion
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday,March 26, 2025, 07:00:20 AM »
That’s probably accurate. Who knows why he didn’t write the description for the other one!