brakes, just about to give up and dump car s2 1969

[mike alain]

Folks, 10 hours spent so far on brakes with ALL new parts,   have I used WRONG fluid  DOT3?,  spitfire master(aftermarket) also calipers and rear cylinders, the forum guys all said use dot3
but doing some research they say only girling fluid, I removed master (again)   seals are not expanded, so I   THINK dot 3 is ok for all these aftermarket parts,   and yes
the o ring is in front calipers,  I use a pressure bleeder pump on all corners with farther started first,  I get lots of air ALL the time,  no leaks anywhere, undid all lines and verified all fittings correct
and not leaking.   I have spent a year on this car,  done everything including new frame,  spent over 10,000  so far (fool)  and I think I am about to give up and dump this piece of crap. The
car has won, it has worn me out.    Mike.

[Sandyman]

Mike, sorry to hear of all your issues. The work you have done so far is stellar. Maybe it is time to farm out the brake issue. I know these cars can be challenging, but the reward of driving her makes it all worth while.
Sandy

[Pfreen]

I don't know the s2 but I assume it does not have a booster.  If that is true, then I bleed new brakes by running a tygon clear hose from the corner being bled back to the master cylinder reservoir.  You can then pump the pedal until there are no more bubbles and you don't use 10 gallons of brake fluid in the process.  Bleed all four corners. 

DOT 3 is fine.

I don't think there is a way for air to enter the system by using a pressure bleeder ( does it pressurize the mc?) unless you are running out of fluid.

Anyway, I think you will find my bleeding method useful and the master cylinder won't run out of fluid requiring you to bleed all four corners again.

Good luck.  I think you are close.

[Dilkris]

Mike - I have the tee shirt for where you are (and so too have many other members I am sure) - just walk away from it for a while - (a week?) and go back to it later. "Yes" parts of the Europa are hugely frustrating and many times I have wanted to walk away from my rebuild (TCS) - but I press on - if it beats you, it will be hard to recover.....       

[dakazman]

  After putting the body on have been on , I need to route the last two lines to the master.
I also have a master with the connectors on the outer side.  I’m using Dot 5 and had good pedal during the initial test.  After reading this I’m not sure I want to finish or start now.  All I can say is , “let’s get her done,..” .   I’ll post my advice also.
 Dakazman
 

[4129R]

I had renewed my MC and servo, and replaced all brake lines. New drum wheel cylinders and new front discs.

It took ages to bleed the brakes.

Then I found the servo vacuum pipe was loose.

I fitted a new vacuum pipe, and then the pedal went to the floor, absolutely nothing. So activating the servo caused problems.

I then took all 4 wheels off, sat my wife in the car, and then bled each corner in turn. After bleeding each corner in turn 3 times, eventually lots of bubbles came out of the system. I started the engine twice to active the servo, and this seems to help purge the air out.

Eventually no more air came out, but it takes ages to purge all the air out. Garages use a pressurised fluid into the MC to push the air out.

Patience is needed. Bleeding the brakes is a 2 person job, and can take ages if you are starting from dry. 

Cue Mission Impossible music........ "Good luck Jim".

[mike alain]

that's it.    I spent another 2 hours, removed mast double check every   every part.   pressure bled gets LOTS of air on every corner.  real bad lots of air,  bled again but with wify pushs pedal,
after 300 hours of work.   it is now for sale ,  my mental heath is more important then this.  10,000   gets the car and it has running rebuilt engine and new frame.  ready for paint. fu*k it.

[BDA]

I don't know the s2 but I assume it does not have a booster.  If that is true, then I bleed new brakes by running a tygon clear hose from the corner being bled back to the master cylinder reservoir.  You can then pump the pedal until there are no more bubbles and you don't use 10 gallons of brake fluid in the process.  Bleed all four corners. 

DOT 3 is fine.

I don't think there is a way for air to enter the system by using a pressure bleeder ( does it pressurize the mc?) unless you are running out of fluid.

Anyway, I think you will find my bleeding method useful and the master cylinder won't run out of fluid requiring you to bleed all four corners again.

Good luck.  I think you are close.

That’s a really clever way of bleeding a new system. Normally you would want to make sure the ends of the tubing are below the fluid level in the reservoir so that air isn’t sucked back into the system but the runs are probably long enough that it is not a problem. I would not use this method for subsequent bleeding because you want to get rid of the old fluid.

DOT 3 is fine. I prefer DOT 5.1. It has a higher wet and dry boiling point and is compatible with DOT 3 and the DOT 4 fluids which are all glycol based. Glycol fluids are not compatible with silicone (DOT 5) fluids and should never be mixed which means that unless you want to go to a lot of trouble to completely clean out your system, don’t think about going from glycol to silicone or vice versa.

If you have no leaks, including into your booster if you have one, just keep bleeding. If you don’t use pfreen’s method, you must run a tube from the bleed valve into a bottle of fluid and that tube must always be below the fluid level in the bottle.

Good luck!

[Richard48Y]

Air seeps through much easier than brake fluid.
If you are still getting bubbles after all that you do have an air leak somewhere.
I went through similar issues with my Land Rover 101 FC.
In the end I had to fit copper washers at the fittings to get a perfect seal.
Should not have been necessary with all new parts, but it was.

All these recent cars at around $10K, so frustrating I cannot buy them!

[jbcollier]

35 years using DOT3 in British vehicles with no problems.

What kind of pressure bleeder are you using?

Can you get an Assistant?  Or, do you have to do this by yourself?

Front brakes should be hooked closest to the pedal, rears furthest.

Bleed the fronts first, then the rears.

Here's what I do:

- bleed the master BEFORE installing it.  I rig up lines from the outputs back to the reservoir.  Hold the master in a vise and pump slowly until it pumps clear fluid.

- remove the pipes and plug the ports.

- install the master and fill up the reservoir.  Give it a minute for the air to clear the reservoir.

- use a clean plastic jug with a clear hose that will fit the bleeder snugly.

- start at the far front calliper.  Hook up the hose, open the bleeder and pump the pedal slowly 10 times.  Close the bleeder.

- top up the master

- next closer calliper, same again

- next the farthest rear wheel cylinder (not fussy really)

- next the closet rear wheel cylinder

- now go back to the far front and bleed in ten pump cycles until it pumps just fluid.

- REMEMBER TO KEEP CHECKING THE LEVEL

- all pumping clear?

- double check all the bleeders are tight

- rinse around the bleeder area with water.

How's the pedal?

Little low?  If engaging the handbrake improves things then your rear brakes need adjusting.

Brake light one?  Go to the spool valve and remove the plastic sensor.  Use a pic to centre the valve (valve is centred with the high spot in view).

[BDA]

You reminded me of another possibility, Richard! If you loosen the bleed valve too much, you can get air sucked in through the threads of the valve. Obviously, the same holds true for any fitting that is not tight. Usually brake fittings are straight threaded so the seal is formed by a flare or bubble but if you have pipe threads, you should use some sealant like teflon tape or silicon sealant.

I hesitate to mention it (because its somewhat expensive and I had lived without it for a long time but this stuff is so intriguing that I keep finding uses for it so I will. It is a lubricant called EZ-Turn. It is a goo that does not dissolve in gasoline or even parts washer fluid. It seals and lubricates threads so it can be handy for brake bleed valves (applied carefully so as not to obstruct the holes in the valve), idle mixture screws, or anything you want to be able to turn later but seal from air ingress. It works as a gasket goo - I recently used it on the fuel strainer cover gaskets of my Webers that were leaking. It does not harden. It is usually available from aircraft supply stores but if you do an Interweb search for it, you'll probably find it other places.   

[jbcollier]

If the master won't pump clear fluid when you are bleeding it on the bench, then there's your problem.  Inexpensive masters are much less reliable than the OEM ones.  I know it's tempting to try and save money but this is one area wher it is worth spending the extra dosh.

[jbcollier]

I do not use vacuum bleeders, more trouble than they are worth.  True pressure bleeders work well but often make a mess.

[Dilkris]

JB - sorry - what does this mean? "If the master would pump clear fluid when you are bleeding it on the bench, then there's your problem." Chris

[jbcollier]

Sigh, would = won't!

I'll fix the post and leave this as testament to my dyslexia.