Rising Europa sale prices.

[dakazman]

    Rising sale prices, Good or Bad your comments please.

    It’s a true double edge sword. If finished with our project we would like to see time spent was worth it. I don’t pay myself or many others for work done on my car and really not doing it to prove anything.
I just love the look of these cars and sorry to say my ex, 67 Jaguar XKE 4.2 convertible. The comparison of two of these specimens scraps are night and day.  I can continue with some other examples but I’ll stick with this project.
  I would just like to see the enthusiasm for what these true classics are worth weather highly modified or stock.
Dakazman

[lotusfanatic]

Hi Dakazman,

 

Rising Europa sale prices.... definitely a double-edged sword!

The good side is that increasing prices will encourage many people from all manner of trades to remanufacture obsolete parts as there's a stronger possibility or recouping their tooling costs etc.
The bad side is that cars will become more difficult for some to purchase, obsolete parts will become more expensive and restored cars will become show ponies and will never be driven. 

Mark

     

[TurboFource]

I have mixed emotions about increasing value..... I can only afford this by doing all the work myself... I would like to restore an early S2 at some point if I can still afford one ....

[S2Zetec54]

...good question.

If I would be happy if they were losing money during my ownership I'd say no...do I want them to be super expensive show ponies....no that would probably scare me as I drive them

.....perhaps if they just kept pace with the general market that would be good

[Dilkris]

I have mixed emotions about increasing value..... I can only afford this by doing all the work myself... I would like to restore an early S2 at some point if I can still afford one ....

Even by doing all the work ourselves, the rebuild of a Europa is an expensive venture - I have documented all costs associated with rebuilding my TCS and will publicize on the forum in a couple of months; note: these costs represent the rebuild of the "go kart" only and do not include body costs as I have yet to start this. The "go kart" total is quite frightening.   

[Rosco5000]

For me I would be happy to see the cars appreciate above inflation.  You should always expect the prices to grow with inflation otherwise you are losing money.  Do I want them to be unobtainable for a new generation no.  Are good cars available for the next generation of owners?  Not a lot of people putting really high quality cars on the market like in the 911 world so it makes me worry about the longevity of our model.  Mediocre cars will turn into barn finds that owners couldn't keep running.   IMHO if the values were there for the best of the best I think it would be good to keep the our cars going in the long run.  You just don't see car models that aren't valuable survive in significant numbers.
Ross

[Richard48Y]

I have not had my S2 all that long and it's apparently already doubled in theoretical value.
Seems odd as it was a feeBay find so lots of other folk had their chance at it.
I turned down a fairly tidy profit on it while bringing it home right after purchase.
After waiting decades to have one, particularly with TS head and Webers, I want a few years of having it on the road/track before it becomes an "Investment" too valuable to enjoy.
Gave up too many other cars in the past when rising prices made actually driving them casually a really dumb thing to do.
None of those cars are replaceable at current value and I really do miss them.
So I hope the Europa does NOT get into the "Ooo ah, a Ferrari/Porsche/Vintage Racer/etc" vertical price spiral for at least another five plus years.
So please talk about their flimsy bodies, rust prone chassis, cheap parts bin components, and other foibles all you like, but otherwise keep the Europa joy a secret to ourselves.

[Chuck Nukem]

Doing basic searching on the internet it seems the MSRP for a Twin cam in 1972 was around $4295. In 2021 dollars that is just under $30k. For a pristine car that means we have kept pace with inflation....

I don't think you can ask for any less than that. I went through the exercise on Lotus talk where someone was discussing building an early Mk14 elite from the parts that MK14 components sells. He was stating that he was on a budget and felt that it should be possible to build a car from scratch for less than the going rate of a current runner. I did the same exercise and came up with the following numbers,
"Lotus supposedly lost money on every new Elite sold which was around $5500 from new which would equate to approximately $55,000 in todays money from 1957....It would still be a loser today"
When he inquired to Mk14 it turns out their pricing also reflected this....Their cost to turn key would rival buying a runner. it didn't help his case that he was not technically inclined or prepared to build this car himself to save money...

We have a clear advantage over type 14 because of the pains Chapman went through to manufacture that car. He made the Elan and Europa much more manufacturable.

Richard,

I don't think you have to worry too much. Most of the critical measurements of the suspension components are listed in the factory manual and could be recreated if needed (I have said this before but it bears repeating). The bodies are eminently reproducible. The frame models are available on CAD. There is hardly a single component which can not be sourced or remanufactured these days. The Europa will climb, but I doubt it will significantly outpace inflation. Realistically If you are buying a car on the merits of it's looks or prestige you can certainly do better than the Europa. I don't mean that as a dig at our cars, but as a compliment because they are made to be driven! Except mine...mine were made to sit in my yard and await rebirth.

As long as you want one bad enough there should be projects a plenty to source. When there are truly none left to fix then we can mold are cars and make new ones because we are just that damn crazy!

Here is a great example of someone's determination overcoming the financial barriers to "ownership"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWLvmOQ-ms&t=1s

He probably knows more about the Stratos than most of its owners....

[Dilkris]

.......There is hardly a single component which can not be sourced or remanufactured these days.....
....Here is a great example of someone's determination overcoming the financial barriers to "ownership" .....

You still can't buy ashtrays..... 

Lancia Stratos... those are serious serious money are they not? Even if you can find one.   

[Chuck Nukem]

.......There is hardly a single component which can not be sourced or remanufactured these days.....
....Here is a great example of someone's determination overcoming the financial barriers to "ownership" .....

You still can't buy ashtrays..... 

Lancia Stratos... those are serious serious money are they not? Even if you can find one.   

Maybe I need to machine a mold to make new ashtrays..... 

[Dilkris]

Maybe I need to machine a mold to make new ashtrays..... 

   By the time you've invested in the tooling - you should break even at about US$3000 each... 

[Chuck Nukem]

Maybe I need to machine a mold to make new ashtrays..... 

   By the time you've invested in the tooling - you should break even at about US$3000 each... 

That sounds fair! Taking pre orders now 

[Bainford]

Here is a great example of someone's determination overcoming the financial barriers to "ownership"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZWLvmOQ-ms&t=1s

He probably knows more about the Stratos than most of its owners....

Wow! That guy is a parts scrounger of the highest order. I hope there are more episodes to come.