Renault Engine Building tips

[Ultimaguy476]

So I'm told.
I wonder if they would be strong enough for my 82.5mm bore?  These liners are not suported at the top...other than where they rest against each other.....
In my case, they are fairly thin as you can imagine.  Thoughts anyone?

[TurboFource]

Search " Honda cylinder liner support" for some ideas as Honda car engines have a similar setup where they are not supported at the top of the liner.

In the old days they used to "pin" the cylinders on the thrust side of the bore to help support them but this would cause some distortion of the bore that required the bore to machined to make it true again.

[MRN I J]

So I'm told.
I wonder if they would be strong enough for my 82.5mm bore?  These liners are not suported at the top...other than where they rest against each other.....
In my case, they are fairly thin as you can imagine.  Thoughts anyone?

The company was GKN Squeezeform at Worcester, this was 30+ years ago, the tech/sales guy must have long retired by now as I myself am coming up for my pension, he was older than me, it was largely sold to me as a prototype for testing as they knew I raced on short track events with quick warmup of a few minutes, massive loadings for a couple of minutes then shut down when run in conjunction with my intended engine spec, they have also been used on a DB6 engine with a top flange liner with some success, slightly too large bore to be truly successful.
They are similar to Nikasil coating as per Porsche 928 & later 911's & now many modern VAG & other engines , their customers ran them in several engines at Le Mans aswell as testing on dyno's on full 40+ hr testing.
They fit & look exactly the same as a CI liner except they are alloy, they are supported at the bottom as per oe, for an 82.5mm bore the base would need to be bored bigger in the block.
Having carried a Reliant 850cc engine from the back of a van to my workshop my intention was also to make my Renault engine light enough to carry beside the performance advantages, now I'm well into my sixties I wouldn't want to do it but I still like the idea.
The whole reasoning behind the mods that I envisaged for the car was to race it in 1hr endurance events, so removing weight is always a good idea.
Photo to follow when my phone is charged.

[Ultimaguy476]

I still can't imagine the weight loss would be worth it for me since it is static weight, not rotating mass. 
I just weighed a stock connecting rod at 664 grams.  An Eagle ESP H-beam rod is 555 grams, good for 900hp, pre-balanced, and available on ebay for $340.43 including shipping.  They even come with ARP rod bolts.
It seems that this is a much better place to save weight since it is the definition of rotating mass.
As they are 1mm longer and have a larger wrist pin hole, you would likely have to use custom pistons.  You could possibly use a bushing for the wrist pin but you would have to make sure that you still have clearance between the piston and head from that added 1mm..

Here in the US, I think you could likely buy rods, sleeves, and pistons for very close to Slav's Ebay price for pistons and sleeves alone, which is around $1500US. I would think that a 1796cc build, including block bore, rods, sleeves, pistons, head work with porting and bigger valves, cam grind and lifter resurface, gaskets and bearings would run less than $5000.  And the result for me was 161hp at the wheels, which I believe is around 190 at the crank. 

Every time I step on the throttle, I think that's a really great deal.

[GavinT]

Search " Honda cylinder liner support" for some ideas as Honda car engines have a similar setup where they are not supported at the top of the liner.

Yes, I've looked at that stuff before and it seems good.

Darton do a Honda 81mm or 84mm kit for the B16A engine which could possibly be adapted to the 807 without too much trouble. It's their (MID Modular Integrated Deck) system.
I'd like to put a calliper on one to see for sure.

Their 81mm (1734cc) kit would be fine by me but I'd be less afraid to go to 82.5mm with the Darton upper liner support. Not very expensive, either.

The old factory rally Alpine A110's complained about barreling and loss of compression which was put down to the thin 82.5mm liners.

Salv's 1800cc kits are steel which are stronger than cast but steel comes with it's own quirks

[MRN I J]

An Eagle ESP H-beam rod is 555 grams, good for 900hp, pre-balanced, and available on ebay for $340.43 including shipping.  They even come with ARP rod bolts.

Are those the Toyota rods?

Here are the liner photos

[Ultimaguy476]

Yes, Toyota 3sgte. The eagle site lists two rods, one good for 900hp, the other for 1200hp. Same weight....different price. 

https://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=40

eBay listing

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-Connecting-Rods-H-Beam-for-Toyota-3S-GTE-Celica-MR2-SW20-ST185/111138169875?fits=Make%3AToyota&epid=633075521&hash=item19e059e413:g:TcsAAOSwUixe2rcQ

[Ultimaguy476]

Those liners are different than mine as they are flanged on top to accept a standard head gasket. Mine aren’t. I get custom cosmetic gaskets.
Also flanged on the bottom, which mine are not.
I wonder if that is to address a strength issue but I haven’t had any problems with mine.

[MRN I J]

they were copied off an OE liner

[MRN I J]

Search " Honda cylinder liner support" for some ideas as Honda car engines have a similar setup where they are not supported at the top of the liner.

Yes, I've looked at that stuff before and it seems good.

Darton do a Honda 81mm or 84mm kit for the B16A engine which could possibly be adapted to the 807 without too much trouble. It's their (MID Modular Integrated Deck) system.
I'd like to put a calliper on one to see for sure.

Their 81mm (1734cc) kit would be fine by me but I'd be less afraid to go to 82.5mm with the Darton upper liner support. Not very expensive, either.

The old factory rally Alpine A110's complained about barreling and loss of compression which was put down to the thin 82.5mm liners.

Salv's 1800cc kits are steel which are stronger than cast but steel comes with it's own quirks

We had the same problems with our 50s Aston engines when running 84mm from OE 83mm which is why I havent used them since 1978, very important consideration, in Bell's book he gives a minmum cylinder wall thickness of 0.180", over 4.5mm

[Richard48Y]

These cylinder discussions are very similar to what Alfa Romeo guys go through.
In the Alfa world those seeking ultimate power levels (A turbo land speed car for example) resort to a mono-sleeve.
It is a single piece machined to replace the individual cylinders and eliminates the flex/sealing issues of the open deck design.
Not cheap but very successful.

[MRN I J]

These cylinder discussions are very similar to what Alfa Romeo guys go through.
In the Alfa world those seeking ultimate power levels (A turbo land speed car for example) resort to a mono-sleeve.
It is a single piece machined to replace the individual cylinders and eliminates the flex/sealing issues of the open deck design.
Not cheap but very successful.

from Cast Iron or?

[GavinT]

from Cast Iron or?

Cast iron I think.
Pretty fancy for the time . .  and with an eye watering price.
Here's a pic from a local racer's car back then.

[TurboFource]

Wow, nice part!

[GavinT]

We had the same problems with our 50s Aston engines when running 84mm from OE 83mm which is why I havent used them since 1978, very important consideration, in Bell's book he gives a minmum cylinder wall thickness of 0.180", over 4.5mm

Yes . . for the Alpine rally cars using 82.5mm bores, the wall thickness works out to around 0.130"

Darton list some MID sleeves with 0.188" but specify for "Drag only" which I presume is code "no warranty".
There's a couple listed at 0.213" and 0.217" wall thickness while most are above the 0.230" range.
The thickest is only 0.285", though, so it's interesting to see what manufactures consider is OK and what isn't.

For the 807, it seems more sensible to re-space the cylinders as Ferry did for the 84mm, 1860cc kit.