Renault Engine Building tips

[Ultimaguy476]

He mentioned 100 pcs....total.  I stretched it down to 10 sets to see what he will do.
Even asked him to price individual sets to see what he comes up with....maybe he will, maybe not.
We got along well....let's see what he comes back with.

[Richard48Y]

Two things I know about roller rockers.
1. Some folk claim they really are not that effective in increasing HP.
2. Many forms of racing ban them as unfair to those with lesser budgets.

Looking at the bans I would hazard to say that yes they are effective.
I've heard some discussion that their greatest benefit is reduction in oil temps.

If price is not too crazy and mass not too great I might be interested in a set.
Do we have a mass comparison to stock parts?

[GavinT]

Good job calling them, Nick.
Interesting story.

I very much doubt he'd share the CAD files. I wouldn't ding him for that - he's running a business, after all.

By the same token, are you looking to make a profit, Nick?
Again, I'd not ding you for that, either, for the same reasons, but it makes a difference to the relationship if you are.
Are you looking for another set?

Roller rockers are much more of a known quantity these days and with the cost of CNC coming down, I'll bet there are plenty of small shops willing and able to take on this type of job at quantities we might be able to meet.

Adjusting a CAD file from an existing file by substituting measurements is a well established reverse engineering technique.

Here's a set offered by Paradise Racing for the Toyota 2TC & 3TC engine. The Toyota engine is not altogether dissimilar to the rocker gear on the Renault crossflow.
Perhaps these were also made by Rocker Arms Unlimited?

Here's a set of Titan Roller Rockers (needle rollers optional?) offered by BRD Racing for the same Toyota engine. It's an old pic but the price of US$499.00 isn't all that bad . . and that's for a single set at the retail price.
These ones look to be a little different design to the others.

https://titanspeed.com/content/rocker/

I only point these out only to illustrate that there aren't limitations to one specific manufacturer.
A friend of mine used to make some extraordinary stuff for the drag bike world which was mostly for the US market. I could contact him if needed.


Cheers,
Gavin

[Richard48Y]

My CAD skills are a bit rusty now, I need to practice much more often.
These are not terribly complex parts so I could probably draw them if needed.
Would not be fast and would have to wait until around June to begin.
The guy who bought my CNC's might be willing to make them if I supply the CAD files.

EDIT: As many of you probably know the biggest headache for CNC is getting the set-up exactly right, then keeping it.
Even with the best programming and fixtures there WILL be scrap parts.
When I was doing short run CNC it was not uncommon for the set-up and dialing in tool off-sets to take longer than actually producing the parts.
One-hundred parts is a short run, I would expect that to be one hundred of each Int and Ex?
Since it appears no one else offers these I wonder if it might be a good idea to contact some of the folk in Europe about them?

[Ultimaguy476]

I am not looking to make a profit.  I am only involved because I happen to have made them previously and thus am the right person to pick up the ball.  Until Gavin’s post, i was just about to send my two extras to England for Chris to CAD them.....had them all packed and thel label and customs formed printed....but that is shelved pending the reply from Rockerarms.com. 
I might take a set, but only because I’m a hoarder of things I might use......gotta hide that from the significant other.
Please don’t question my motives....I have been GIVING away parts that don’t fit my Europa because I have modified my car to the point that most parts don’t fit.  I have two pallets ready to ship in my basement....one with trunk box, headlight covers, NG transmission....the other with most of my old rear suspension parts(two twin link setups, many uprights, bearings, trailing arms.....250 pounds).....all FREE.  I am not even charging for the multiple hours to sort the parts and crate them up...including no charge for the NEW plywood and the time and effort to take the pallets to the shipping depot an hour away.  Many times I have even paid the shipping cost.
Let’s not include the multitude of hours of texts, phone calls, and FaceTime calls to people as a result of the ads I posted for FREE Europa stuff.  Calls to people that can talk Europa ad nauseum. 
I have well in excess of 100 hours into giving this  stuff away.  I could have, or should have thrown it all away.
This isn’t about money as I don’t need it.  It’s about making room and getting my unused stuff into the hands of people that will use it.
My engine post and camshaft posts are also the result of me knowing that I have some knowledge that may be of value to others. 
Take the knowledge for what it is...just a guy who likes to modify anything....my motto is ‘If it ain’t broke, modify it’.

I intend to spend many hours going through a six inch high stack of receipts to help people with rebuild info.  I will post my suppliers, costs, etc. 
When I am done, you likely won’t hear from me again unleess I have some info to offer as lurking on forums is not my cup of tea.

[MRN I J]

I was going to get them drawn out & costed for manufacture then produce about 5 sets for my own use & 1 set for Nick, I reckon they are relatively easy to make, howver I'm not sure I will be able to afford them from the US, even if I can I will only take 1 set if they are 1.7 or 1.75:1 ratio, these are what I used on my Cooper S, they worked really well when used with a 649 race cam.

[dakazman]

      Thanks for all your doing for our Europa community Nick. 

   I have received two of three said parcels and appreciate the time you have dedicated to all .
Not to mention your move and snow storms. My jaw dropped when you showed me on of your parcels going out for just shipping cost.

Dakazman

[MRN I J]

Two things I know about roller rockers.
1. Some folk claim they really are not that effective in increasing HP.
2. Many forms of racing ban them as unfair to those with lesser budgets.

Looking at the bans I would hazard to say that yes they are effective.
I've heard some discussion that their greatest benefit is reduction in oil temps.

If price is not too crazy and mass not too great I might be interested in a set.
Do we have a mass comparison to stock parts?

from my own use with a high ratio set for an A series BMC,
1. they appear to improve the mid range torque massively
2. they stop sideways loading on valve guides & so stop wear
3. if you buy a STD set from a Renault dealer in France chances are they will more expensive (as long as the roller rockers are $400 / 500 ac set no more, no reason to be much more, nothing complicated about them) than the roller rockers.

[GavinT]

Please don’t question my motives....

C'mon, Nick,

I wasn't questioning your motives; I was looking to clarify them.
Re-read what I wrote. I expressly covered this.

[jbcollier]

MRN IJ is talking about changing the rocker ratio to make the valve move further open than stock.  A roller rocker in and of itself will not change power output.  If you do increase the rocker ratio, make sure you check your piston/valve clearances carefully.

Roller rockers are lighter, enabling higher revs before valve float.  Or, it will enable a similar redline with lower valve spring tension, reducing valve train stress and wear.  The roller tip is particularly effective at reducing wear at higher rpms.  If you don't change the ratio, that's about it.

[GavinT]

Found some more old pics and my notes but can't find the origin . . drat.

Did you sell some to Australia, Nick?
IIRC, a guy in Sydney, Oz did this.
It's an 807 shoehorned into the back of a Renault-8 . . . with an Eaton supercharge from a Mercedes . . . why not.

[MRN I J]

MRN IJ is talking about changing the rocker ratio to make the valve move further open than stock.  A roller rocker in and of itself will not change power output.  If you do increase the rocker ratio, make sure you check your piston/valve clearances carefully.

Roller rockers are lighter, enabling higher revs before valve float.  Or, it will enable a similar redline with lower valve spring tension, reducing valve train stress and wear.  The roller tip is particularly effective at reducing wear at higher rpms.  If you don't change the ratio, that's about it.

Why would you run to the expense of Roller Rockers unless there was a large perfomance gain, you can't see them, they will reduce friction a small amount but whether you would notice, better to get a steel lightweight flywheel made because you will feel that aside from the reliability aspect - I broke the centre out of the std flywheel even though Salv said it was safe repeated hard starts with slick tyres & an LSD

[jbcollier]

If you are running mostly at high rpms, the added reliability would be an important factor.  Now if we could get roller-followers, that would really improve high rpm running.

[Ultimaguy476]

I can't remember if I sold some to Australia....I think so but I haven't put my fingers on the records to see who I sent them to.  I know I sent a set to Japan. 

I did communicate with Alexander Stollznow about sending mine to him to CAD a set but that fell through.
These rockers owe me nothing.....they have performed well and I haven't been easy on them.  And you are correct, they look COOL! 

Now, roller lifters would be great....not sure how that would work with the cam lobes offset from the lifters??
If someone wants to figure that one out....I'm in.

An R8 with a supercharged 807?  Awesome.  I had an R8 Gordini with 1296cc (about 120hp) that I should have never let go.

[GavinT]

Cool . . I'll talk to Alexander.

I've asked a mate if he's interested in producing these roller rockers. He used to make all sorts of one-off billet alloy parts for the US drag bike crowd so has the expertise and CNC gear.

Is there anything else he might need?