1968 lotus europa

[Bud]

I was looking at a 68 Europa today that was registered as a 69 but the door handles, lights and door glass make it an S1 and the glass is fixed in the door. Does this make the car less desirable and is there a fix so that I can get fresh air in the summer. I was so looking forward to this car and then disappointment set in and I may have to rethink the whole project again. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated by anyone who knows anything about this particular series 1 car.
Thanx...I really want one so I can squeeze into it and drive it on the back roads in Canada on a nice summer day

So is the S1 more or less desirable and is there a way to replace the doors with newer doors and crank/power windows

[literarymadness]

  S1a and S1b Europas have pop-out windows.  Not rollup but would certainly serve its purposes. Seems like the easiest solution to an original S1.

[jbcollier]

Used to be common to fit S2 doors to an S1.  Now it's the reverse.  But, yes, it is easily done.  Best to use early S2 doors as they still use the same latch system.  Not critical though, the changes required to fit the later doors are easily done.

You can also convert to the pop-out window as Mr. L. Madness points out.  But, it's not a great system as the window is more of an auto-pop-out window.

The bad news is that not much air flows in through the door windows when they are open.  Air flow is almost perfectly laminar past the door.  Nice to be able to catch a breeze when you stop I guess.

S1 production stopped in May (?) of '68.  Good lord only knows how long it took to get to the dealer so "69 isn't much of stretch.

Where in Canada are you?  (I'm in Edmonton).  I have a pair of S2 doors you would be welcome to.  Complete if I remember correctly.

[jbcollier]

PS:  Welcome to the list.  I have an S1 and love it!

[EuropaTC]

So is the S1 more or less desirable and is there a way to replace the doors with newer doors and crank/power windows

Personally I would say the S1 is the more desirable car with enthusiasts. Yes, the cars are cruder in terms of interior trim, electric windows, etc, but against that you have a lighter car with much cleaner body lines.  I have a TC but actually prefer the lines of the S1, it's just that they were export cars from the UK and there aren't that many around here. Certainly not in the 1980s when I got my car anyway.

Don't get too hung up on being able to open windows for ventilation. As John says, the body lines on all the cars are smooth in terms of air flow and even on my TC there's not a great deal of air (if any) coming in if you open the window. The cars are very quiet as far as wind noise goes which is extraordinary given the age of the design.

What the car does have is excellent cold air ventilation from the two vents at either end of the dash. Once on the move you don't even need the blower running, there will be enough airflow through the front to give you plenty of fresh air. Of course once you stop there's nothing and you need the blower on if you're stuck in traffic but otherwise I've never had a problem getting fresh air into the cabin. 

Hot countries probably need air con or you might just prefer a modern alternative and a few members here have done so (JBCollier for example)

Brian

[GavinT]

I'd agree with others about changing the doors if you like as a lot of this is personal preference.

I'll add one thing, though.
If this is a car you're looking to purchase, you might want to consider the chassis condition.
As you likely know, the chassis is glassed in to the body shell and may well have unseen & unseeable corrosion issues.

Everything can be fixed but that's not a job for the faint hearted.
Is the car currently running and in good shape?

[jbcollier]

Duh!  What was I thinking?

Good point Gavin!

+200 on checking the chassis carefully.  Most were driven in the winter when new.  On an S1, moisture that gets in, stays in and works away on the chassis.  It is extremely rare that an S1 chassis survives intact.  Here's photos on my chassis after removal and dipping:













The scary part is all the welding and brazing they did with the chassis still in the car, yikes!

The good news is that you can fit a replacement chassis from an S2 (early preferred).  If you were in England, there are several places that can rebuild/replace the front "T" section.  I found a used early S2 chassis (thanks Dan) and modified it to S1 specs.

[GavinT]

Those are astonishing pics, JB.

The second pic showing the brazing at the upper regions of the T section is really curious.
Even if you could get a piece of sheet metal in there to protect the body from heat, I can't see how they got an oxy torch in as well as being able to see what was going on.

Not to mention the piece of brazing left swinging in the breeze where the steel has subsequently rusted away.
Amazing.

[Nockenwelle]

I was looking at a 68 Europa today that was registered as a 69 but the door handles, lights and door glass make it an S1 and the glass is fixed in the door. ...

You should check if it is really an S1 or S2. The easiest way is to look at the VIN: starting with '46' -> S1, starting with '54' -> S2
The first ~400 or so S2 do look like the last S1s concerning door handles, indicators, except for the opening door windows. So the 1968 car could well be an S2 retro-fitted with fixed side windows for what ever reason.

If it turns out to be an S1 I would suggest to look for an S2. The S1 is the more desirable car with collectors and hard core Europa enthusiasts. But it is much more complicated to restore (see chassis pictures above) and more uncomfortable to live with. If you are not specifically looking for the extra weirdness of an S1 you're better off with an S2 in every respect.

Klaus

[Ernesto]

Hi Bud,

Can you tell the chassis number ? I am very curious about the transition between S1 and S1a...
Also, in my experience of several years in the South of France with a fixed-windows S1, unless it is very hot, when driving the cockpit stays reasonably fresh, and if you use the fan, even in traffic, it can be ok ; of course, once again, if it's not a particularly hot day.
So in my opinion, it may be worth consideration to keep the windows as they are...This first edition of the S1 is a legacy of Chapman's "crazy" genius, isn't it ?

[Bud]

So I was dealing with a crazy lady who jerked me around several times and I finally refused the car and not very politely. She sold it to a garage mechanic who had it running in a day and was well on his way to finishing it when he encountered some issues....namely PARTS!!!!! So he ended up selling the car to someone in Germany for a substantial loss. Guess it just wasn't to be for me

[tgx]

Used to be common to fit S2 doors to an S1.  Now it's the reverse.  But, yes, it is easily done.  Best to use early S2 doors as they still use the same latch system.  Not critical though, the changes required to fit the later doors are easily done.

You can also convert to the pop-out window as Mr. L. Madness points out.  But, it's not a great system as the window is more of an auto-pop-out window.

The bad news is that not much air flows in through the door windows when they are open.  Air flow is almost perfectly laminar past the door.  Nice to be able to catch a breeze when you stop I guess.

Old thread but as I am working on windows thought I would drop a note on this topic. Having any opening on the windows to me doesn't seem to be advantageous. At speed you get plenty of airflow via the vents which is moderately clean unless someone is rolling coal in front of you. At a stop light I think a stout blower would be nice. The mickey mouse factory one on the 46 is 'light' I guess but doesn't flow much. When the side windows are out on my 46 all I notice are engine bay fumes that are non-existent with the windows in. When stopped, airflow is minimal via the open window unless you just happen to be at the correct angle to the wind and it is blowing.  I think it's clear why they simply bonded in the windows on the early 46's. I would like to hear some comments on the tilt out 47 windows but I suspect it wouldn't differ much from my observations. Also curious what they used to bond in the early Type 46 windows. Was butyl tape used at that point or were they doing some sort of adhesive?

[jbcollier]

Special trim holds the one piece window in place:

[tgx]

Pretty neat trim. Never seen those before. Is anyone re-popping them?

[jbcollier]

Not that I have found.