1st breakdown & hopefully last.

[EuropaTC]

Another "Wow !" and the "Lots of Trouble" award is well deserved for such a unique and devious breakdown !

Joking apart, that's incredibly hard luck and something I've never seen before. In fact I'm struggling to think how the engine could run for so long after being assembled and then suddenly fail, I'd have expected an assembly fault like that to show itself in the first few miles.

But as John says, something is wrong and the cause needs to be found before starting over.  I'm a bit hazy without a distributor in front of me but I'm wondering if the spiral cog on the bottom is pinned to the distributor shaft on these engines and if that's loosened. Hard to see how other than an undersized pin but I'm struggling anyway.

The other thought was if the distributor clamp plate had loosened where it grips round the distributor body. It's hard to see how it could come off the engine block without losing the timing and being obvious before it came loose enough to wreck the gears, but I suppose it might not be gripping the body tight enough and the action of rotating on the spiral causes it to jump teeth. (before slipping back down & smashing itself....)

If you can manage it, some photos of the damage might help others to avoid the same thing ?

JB gives what I consider a pretty convincing argument that the cassette water pumps are not called for on the Europa since there are no ancillary drive belts (such as an alternator as on the Elan) that could put pressure on the bearings. You might consider replacing your water pump v-belt with a gilmer belt. This would further reduce the stress on the bearings. I don't have any experience with the TC water pump but based on my experience with my water pump gilmer belt, I would expect the gilmer belt would be easier to replace than the v-belt.

I've kept to the OEM pump as well, without an alternator/dynamo bracket where the owner can apply so much force that it breaks the bearings the Europa pump lasts a long time. And I'm sure I remember Mike Walters saying at a Club Lotus seminar that they never had premature failures with the TC Europa (and only a handful with the Elan - but they'd mostly be dealer serviced back then)

Miles Wilkins is also an advocate of the OEM pump and in his books he reckons the "waterpump failure" is a myth. True, if it goes wrong then it is a Head/sump removal job, but you'll do the same thing to fit a cartridge pump and even then you've got access problems to replace it.  In fact I'd check that a cartridge can be replaced with the engine in situ before going ahead, it's different on the Elans because once the radiator is out you have easy access but we have that bulkhead on the Europa.

Looking forward to the diagnosis and verdict.....

Brian

[4129R]

The oil pump and the distributor are driven off of the same gear on the jackshaft. The gear teeth on my jackshaft was damaged by some idiot not being careful re-installing the oil pump in the past. Unfortunately the idiot was me.

Just so we don't go down the same slippery path, could you please care to enlighten us what we could possibly do wrong in installing the oil pump which would cause damage to the drive from the jackshaft.

I don't want to go down that path, as it sounds very expensive, especially if the oil pump stops and the engine doesn't...... until it runs dry.

My thoughts are the distance between the oil pump and the block were wrong, and the gear did not connect properly to the jackshaft. There is a spacer thingy that I have never found the need to put in....... yet.

[BDA]

Ok, I've never built a Kent motor from scratch so I'm far from an expert but if a spacer might be required for the oil pump, one would also be required for the dizzy, right?

[4129R]

Ok, I've never built a Kent motor from scratch so I'm far from an expert but if a spacer might be required for the oil pump, one would also be required for the dizzy, right?

Depends of the length between the flange where is attaches to the block, and the gear which engages the jackshaft.

2 separate shafts engaging the jackshaft at different angles.

[Grumblebuns]

The oil pump doesn't have a spacer, just a gasket. I believe I caused the cascading damage by being in too big of a hurry in installing the oil pump. I did not ensure that the teeth of the pump were engaged with the jackshaft before tightening down on the bolts. The helical gears of the pump and jackshaft should sort of self align when inserted but I didn't ensure that they were before I started torquing down on the bolts. See the damage on the jackshaft teeth when I pulled it out for my engine rebuild (picture attached).

 

[4129R]

The oil pump doesn't have a spacer, just a gasket. 

Maybe the spacer is for the fuel pump which also takes its drive off an elliptical cam on the same jackshaft.

[rjbaren]

I don't want to place blame where it does not belong.  The shop I went to told me to replace the condenser and then, if needed, replace the points.  My first mistake was not removing the distributor.  I dropped the screw for the condenser into the distributor.  I rolled the car to get the engine to TDC to remove the distributor and retrieve the screw.  I noticed the rotor was not turning.  And when I pulled the distributor I found the half missing gear.

Oddly enough, I found the broken piece of gear on top of the shaft in the distributor hole.  The mechanic at the shop said it would not be possible for that little of a screw to do that damage.  I am pretty sure it was from me rolling the car in gear to get to TDC with an lose screw in the distributor that must have jammed the shaft.

Tuesday I will have the car towed in one shop to have the engine removed.  I will then take if to the engine builder's shop.  He has more distributors and jackshafts and he is pretty sure he can figure out what happened when he removes the shaft and disassembles the distributor.   I think it is my fault, but time will tell.

[BDA]

The only way I can see your being at fault is if the screw locked the dizzy shaft and you heavily jerked the car when pushing it. It seems unlikely but maybe it is possible. If so, believe me, you're not the only one who has done something simple like that that had severe consequences. Your engine builder should take your distributor apart and check for that possibility first (there would certainly be evidence of that in the dizzy housing if that were the case). He may decide that taking the motor apart may not be necessary.

[EuropaTC]

I don't want to place blame where it does not belong.  The shop I went to told me to replace the condenser and then, if needed, replace the points.  My first mistake was not removing the distributor.  I dropped the screw for the condenser into the distributor.  I rolled the car to get the engine to TDC to remove the distributor and retrieve the screw.  I noticed the rotor was not turning.  And when I pulled the distributor I found the half missing gear.

Hmm. First let me say you've got a very open and honest attitude in shouldering the blame for the problem, not everyone does the same.

But.....  (there's always a "but")  I'm not totally convinced although it does sound a good theory.  The cam drive gear and the angled drive at the bottom of the distributor shaft are going to be hardened to some extent although I have no idea by how much. That will lead to brittle fracture in a sudden overload and could cause the problems you've seen, so that checks out.

What I'm struggling with is the idea of a soft, small screw jamming the advance weights underneath the distributor and you having sufficient momentum when this happens to strip the gear teeth, especially if they are fully meshed.   Unless you're rolling the car downhill or more than just the normal push speed (1mph ?) then I wonder if there's sufficient momentum/kinetic energy to strip the teeth. If anything I'd expect to hit a sudden halt like the brakes were applied. If they did break then I would expect a very expensive and loud "crack"

The other puzzle is finding broken pieces at the distributor, I've no idea how on earth that could happen from pushing the car a few yards at 1-2mph. Could they have fallen there during the dismantling process ?

But as BDA says, if the screw had managed to jam the advance weights there's going to be a very mangled screw and at least one deep score in the distributor body.  Like everyone else I'm intrigued to find out the actual cause. I'm going for a loose clamp plate allowing the distributor to jump out of mesh when you're running !

Brian

[4129R]

IMHO it would take strong pushing in gear to break the distributor to jack shaft gear drive, but it could be possible.

If the distributor were loose in the clamp. surely it would push the distributor up out of the clamp, rather than strip the gears.

[EuropaTC]

If the distributor were loose in the clamp. surely it would push the distributor up out of the clamp, rather than strip the gears.

Yes, I think it would Alex but once it goes up,  unless it managed to clear the mounting hole then vibration of still moving would cause it to drop back down and the lower ends of the teeth would land on a rotating camshaft (in gear - engine still moving if not sparking).

I could see that being enough to chip the teeth even if it did manage to force itself into mesh and carry on with random ignition timing. 

Like everyone else here, it's a big unknown and something to puzzle over - it certainly got me going anyway !

Brian

[Pfreen]

I don't know about your theory, but the jackshaft gear, oil pump gear and distributor gear all broke in my car once upon a time and it had been running for years.  The worst part was that the distributor kept going around.  The oil pump did not.  I realized I had a problem when the engine seized.  It did not scuff the bores, but I had to regrind the crank and replace a few con rods.  I also replaced the jackshaft , oil pump (high pressure, not high flow) and ignition system.  I have a distributorless ignition.

FYI, I learned that the high volume, high pressure oil pumps on the market today have the tendency to destroy the drive gears.  I bought one and then read about the issues, and never installed it.  I didn't want to go through that again. 

So, your experience is not unique, and it could always be worse😊

[rjbaren]

Here is the distributor and piece of the gear I was able to get out with a magnet. 

The gentleman who built the engine wants to pull and replace the jackshaft.  When he takes apart the distributor and sees the jackshaft he thinks he will be able to tell what happened.  The condenser screw that I did remove from the distributor was not mangled.   There is a small hole in the side of the distributor body.  The mechanic at the shop where the rebuilt engine was installed thinks a counter weight rivet came lose and caused the damage.  I should know more later this week or early next week once the engine has been removed and I take it over to the engine builder's shop.

Also,  I ordered a FAST electronic ignition kit which, if I have a change of heart and don't open, I can return.  Both the mechanic and the engine builder think if I replace the Strombergs with a Weber 2 barrel downdraft it would be an improvement.  They both have done it for customers.  One shop uses a Datsun 240 manifold that has to be worked and the engine builder has also done it with an MGB manifold that he narrows.  In both cases they say the customer liked the change.  The engine builder also said the normal carb for this is a Weber 32/36 but he suggests using a Weber 38/38.  I like the idea of having an accelerator pump. 

[jbcollier]

Don’t use those horrible, bolt-on manifolds that’s replace each Stromberg with a DGV,etc.  The Strombergs are actually pretty good if the engine isn’t far from stock tune.  If it is hopped - up, then flat slide motorcycle carbs work well, very well, way less flow restriction than a DCOE.

[rjbaren]

Can you please give some more information on the motorcycle carbs?  My engine is hopped up.  The builder used a steel crank and bored it out 1mm.  He told me it should be around 1705cc.  He also changed the cams for street use.  I know he had some problems with the idle.  He doesn't like the Strombergs as much as he does Weber side drafts when dynoing twin cam engines.