Author Topic: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.  (Read 4977 times)

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Offline rjbaren

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1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 06:53:34 AM »
I took a break from my relay projects take a drive.  The horn relays is done and so is the radiator fan relay so I thought it would see if the fan would come on.  If the engine was not hot enough I would let it idle till it turned on the fan to complete the relay test.

Things didn't go so well.  After about five miles I felt/noticed a single misfire and thought maybe I should head home.  The car continued to run smoothly, and I missed my opportunity to take a shortcut home and of course then the car started really missing and losing power, and then the power would come back on and off till she quit.  I was on the side of the road about a mile from home so I had it flat bedded home.

I have checked for spark, thanks to my wife, and there is spark at the end of the spark plug wire.  I removed the rubber fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump output to the carb TEE connector and hit the starter and fuel pumped into a jar.  The rubber line at the fuel pump connection was to my surprise, not tight.  It was a crimped on type clamp and I easily pulled the rubber line off the metal line.  I also noticed I have no fuel filter.  I have 1/4 inch line and I plan to put in an inline filter.  Should it go before or after the fuel pump?

Lastly, the only weird thing I did before the drive was to remove a rubber vacuum line that went from one carb to the other.  I thought it would look cleaner if I removed the vacuum hose and put a rubber vacuum cap on each nozzle where the hoses were attached at each carb base near the inlet manifold.  I think this nozzle is used for the vacuum advance but not on my car. 

The engine and carbs were both professionally overhauled.  The carbs were sent to Joe Curto and the mostly restored car has about 500 miles on it so far.  The gas tanks were both cleaned as well but I didn't notice the lack of a fuel filter till now.  The car want to fire with the fuel line disconnected.  Could the lack of a fuel filter have clogged the float bowl inlet and starved the engine?  If this happened to just one carb is that enough to make the car stop running?
Thanks
 

Offline 4129R

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #1 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 10:55:16 AM »
If you have fuel and a spark, maybe the timing has changed through the distributor not being tight and moving around. That could account for the misfire.

Check the timing, make sure the plugs are clean their gap is correct and they haven't sooted up. Make sure the plug leads are fixed firmly. Make sure the points are clean and dry.

My guess is an electrical problem.

Has the HT coil overheated through 12v going through a 9V coil for a long time?

Offline rjbaren

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #2 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 05:05:51 PM »
Today I added an inline fuel filter and it filled with fuel so I know the fuel pump is working, plus I pumped some into a jar for good measure.  The distributor is tight and does not rotate.  The cap is seated and all the wires are tight.  There is a ballast resister near the coil and the coil is new.  When I stuck a screwdriver in the plug wire and laid it near the valve cover yesterday there was spark.  All the low tension wires at the cap and coil are tight and not broken. 

I feel like it is a fuel problem because I even suspected the accelerator cable might have broke.  When I tried to start it up today the first few cranks she fired and of course died.  Finally she wouldn't even fire.  I do remember the mechanic at the shop telling me the Stromberg carbs will strand you. 

I guess I need to check the points too.   

Offline SENC

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #3 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 05:30:16 PM »
Elan owner with Strombergs here, so may be missing something Europa-specific - but on the Elan twink, the tube connecting the 2 carbs is very important as it balances the airflow across the carbs and siamesed intakes.  An Elan without would run extremely rough, at best.  But that is a metal tube not a rubber tube, so perhaps you're speaking of something different.  Regardless, there is nothing wrong or problematic about Strombergs, and if Joe Curto rebuilt yours you can likely rule them out as the problem and I'd be thinking ignition circuit somewhere.  They're pretty simple to work on and diagnose, so don't be scared to open them up and look around if you're concerned about fuel gunk in the bowl.  How are they mounted?  On the Elan twin cam, the mount needs to be flexible with a good viton ring between adapter plate and secondary throttle and with thackery washers or similar under the nuts, I assume the same on the Europa.  A hard/fixed mount can cause fuel frothing which may also cause issues.  Last, have you checked the damper oil?

Agree with your last thought on checking your points, as well as the rotor itself.  Even if new check the cap carefully and try an old or replacement rotor, there is a lot of new junk out there.  In my opinion, Distributor Doctor is selling the best quality distributor parts, if you need them.

Offline rjbaren

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #4 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 06:57:38 PM »
Thanks Senc.  Tonight I pulled each plug and they were wet.  I recently installed new Autolite resistor plugs because I added a radio.  I also changed from copper core wires to suppression wires.  I did the screwdriver in the plug wire boot test and I see spark.  The distributor is not lose so I don't believe it is timing.  I think by seeing a spark I rule out the cap, rotor, points, coil and wiring. 

I just wonder if a piece of dirt got in the float needle.  Before tonight there was no fuel filter for the nearly 500 miles I have driven the car.  Also the way the car quit running was an on again off again feeling.  I would think if the spark were the culprit the engine would just go dead, but the engine kept trying to run and would then sputter and run and then sputter some more and finally lost power and quit.

Tomorrow I may have to pull the carbs and check the needle valves.

Offline BDA

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #5 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 07:35:35 PM »
I may be going our on a limb a bit but I think that because you got a spark does not mean that your cap, rotor, points, and/or condenser are ok. Inspecting your rotor and cap could be in order. What color is your rotor? If it is new and it's not red, it may be suspect. Recent copies of Lucas rotors use a rivet to attach the conductor to the rotor. Red ones are what you want (http://www.distributordoctor.com/red-rotor-arms.html). r.d. enterprises, Dave Bean certainly sell them. I would expect most reputable Lotus suppliers will as well or you can get them from the diestributor doctor (see link). A cracked cap may be more difficult to detect. I think that sometimes a carbon trace will show it but I don't have first hand experience. As for points and condenser, I'd replace them with the latest Pertronix kit if you haven't already. Along with that, a Pertronix coil would be advised.

I don't have a firm belief that your problem is in your ignition, although I think that's reasonable place to look. In any case, if you have a Pertronix ignition, a new cap and red rotor (you should have your resistance wire installed) you can be pretty certain that it isn't ignition and you'll have a better ignition system than stock.

Good luck!

Offline rjbaren

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #6 on: Monday,September 14, 2020, 08:06:06 PM »
BDA, I just popped off the cap and I do have a red rotor.  I sent my distributor off to Advance distributors in Shakopee MN around the same time I sent my carbs to Joe Curto.   Both were installed by the engine rebuilder and everything ran great, until yesterday.  My plan was to install the Petronix and a Weber 2bbl downdraft over the winter.  I would prefer Weber side drafts but that is too expensive at this point.

I am going to stop in the shop that put everything together and see what they think.  I really would like to get this car running again rather than flat bed it off to the shop.  Tomorrow is another day.

Offline SENC

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,September 15, 2020, 07:56:15 AM »
If you haven't already, I'd pull out the multimeter and test voltage and resistence step by step (points open and points closed) from ignition to ballast to coil (your coil is low (1.5ohm) resistance since you have a ballast resistor, correct) to distbutor to engine to ground.  JBCollier posted a great step-by-step in a recent thread.  I'd also check the resistence of the HT cables and the distributor cap (you can do both with the cables connected to the cap).  What you're describing sounds more electric than fuel to me, but that is admittedly a speculative comment from here.  I would also double-check the engine to chassis ground-strap and connections.

Assuming you can successfuly follow the electrical path and you're getting the resistance and voltages you expect, I'd still pull the distributor and cap for close inspection.  I was struggling with a distributor recently rebuilt by a highly reliable vendor with top quality parts - my old (non-standard) distributor and wires worked fine, couldn't get the engine to start on the rebuilt standard one.  I was getting spark at the end of each wire, but it was weak.  After chasing and chasing I re-inspected the inside of the new cap again and saw a small bit of carbon tracing - not enough to be a problem but I had a spare cap so tried it.  Then I noticed a bit of new tracing on it in the same place, and realized there was some spark jumping from the points/condensor connection very nearby (shouldn't have been enough energy for that there).  I pulled the connection and the points spring and on very close inspection realized the red fiber washer that insulates had been cut by the edge of the points spring and was allowing a periodic/partial short with engine/starter.  With the washer replaced it turned over first time and ran great.

Offline rjbaren

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 09:14:44 AM »
Well you guys were all correct.  It is ignition.  I finally pulled the distributor and found the drive gear half gone. I fished most of the broken parts out of the distributor hole.  It looks like the gear on the jackshaft has been gnarled too. 

It's going to go the shop for the necessary work.  I'm thinking it may also be a good time to do the cartridge water pump and electronic ignition too.  Any other thoughts since the engine is coming out?

Offline 4129R

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 09:34:08 AM »
For the jackshaft drive gear and the distributor gear to have smashed up, either something has got between the two, or the distributor bearings may be faulty.

A very strange thing to happen, especially since it takes very little effort to rotate the distributor shaft if all is working well.

I think something strange has caused this. Very unusual. Has anyone heard of such a failure before?

Offline BDA

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 09:47:56 AM »
Wow! Who would have thought that?! The source of that failure should be investigated!

As long as your motor is out, if you don't have stainless steel transfer tubes, that would be a good time to do that.

JB gives what I consider a pretty convincing argument that the cassette water pumps are not called for on the Europa since there are no ancillary drive belts (such as an alternator as on the Elan) that could put pressure on the bearings. You might consider replacing your water pump v-belt with a gilmer belt. This would further reduce the stress on the bearings. I don't have any experience with the TC water pump but based on my experience with my water pump gilmer belt, I would expect the gilmer belt would be easier to replace than the v-belt.

Offline Sandyman

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 10:05:40 AM »
Check older posts from JB. I seem to remember that it is critical that the proper head alignment tool is used so that this issue does not occur. Check to make sure that the head was set correctly by the re builder.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 10:58:08 AM »
This is a Twink, not a Renault.

On a Europa, I would have no qualms about keeping the stock water pump as long as it was properly and carefully rebuilt.  That said, sleeping at night is a good thing.  If it would make you feel better, and you are flush with cash, why not?

Distributor gears are not an issue with Twink engines.  Something was damaged, incorrectly assembled, etc.  Find out why.  Don't just replace parts.

Offline 4129R

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 11:08:49 AM »
You need to take the engine out and take the sump off to see what metal bits are down there.

My guess is something "foreign" has got between the gears and caused them to fail.

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: 1st breakdown & hopefully last.
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday,September 16, 2020, 12:04:22 PM »
The oil pump and the distributor are driven off of the same gear on the jackshaft. The gear teeth on my jackshaft was damaged by some idiot not being careful re-installing the oil pump in the past. Unfortunately the idiot was me. Most of the metal bits should have dropped into the oil pan but some small bits may have been carried in the oil galleries to the rest of the engine. During the tear down of my twink engine, there was some light scoring on the main and rod journals and the cam shaft. Not positive that the broken jackshaft teeth was the cause of the scoring.