Author Topic: TC Stopped While Running  (Read 4046 times)

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Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #15 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 07:02:39 AM »
Is the rotor actually turning? It won't throw sparks if the distributor doesn't turn....long shot but easy to check.

I once bought a Fairmont for $100 because they couldn't' figure out why it wasn't throwing a spark...I figured out it needed a $6 timing belt and the distributor wasn't turning😎    Drove the car for a couple of years and sold it for $700
Love your story! Scratching my head last night, I thought maybe I should make sure the rotor was rotoring. The rotor is turning. Thx

Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #16 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 07:06:38 AM »
A TC’s distributor doesn’t stop turning without there being great unhappiness.  Still worth checking.  Cap off, crank the engine and see.

If that’s not it — and I hope it isn’t — then:

Low impedance coil means high current.  The points may have burnt.  Most common fail point is the condenser.  Also, the point’s plate ground wire can fail.  Yes, it all in what you took out but you may find it useful if you do what I recommend next...

Put the points back in.  Resolve the issue.  Then decide whether to change the ignition wholesale.  Switching to another system just makes diagnosing the original problem more difgicult.  The reason I suggest this is that Pertronix is usually very reliable.  If you are not getting spark from the coil, the unit is most likely toast.
I started to backtrack to the points system last night. They were pitted but I have a newer set. I also have another condenser. The distributor is ready to go back in this am. I will post the results. Thank you

Offline BDA

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #17 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 08:03:20 AM »
Is the rotor actually turning? It won't throw sparks if the distributor doesn't turn....long shot but easy to check.

I once bought a Fairmont for $100 because they couldn't' figure out why it wasn't throwing a spark...I figured out it needed a $6 timing belt and the distributor wasn't turning😎    Drove the car for a couple of years and sold it for $700
Love your story! Scratching my head last night, I thought maybe I should make sure the rotor was rotoring. The rotor is turning. Thx

As JB said, if it weren't, you would have MAJOR problems like the teeth on the cam and/or distributor would be gone, the teeth on the jackshaft sprocket destroyed or sprocket came off the jackshaft, or the jackshaft broken. I think if any of those happened, it probably would have made an impression on you and you wouldn't have said your motor just stopped!

While you are fooling with the distributor, take off the rotor and drop a few drops of oil in the hollow of the shaft. That's a job many of us forget.

Offline Sandyman

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #18 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 08:22:58 AM »
As I have discovered many times these cars are always plagued with bad ground issues. Just a thought.
Sandy

Offline SENC

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #19 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 10:23:22 AM »
I may have misread, is your car positive earth?  If negative earth, coil + to ignition (through a ballast resistor or not) and - to the distributor/contact breakers (the distributor provides the ground for the circuit, whether pos or neg).
« Last Edit: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 10:37:16 AM by SENC »

Offline SENC

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #20 on: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 10:32:41 AM »
You know, I wonder if the coil has been wired in reverse for a while.  Technically, I don't guess a coil and points system would "care" about polarity, the flow could go either way just not as efficiently because you'd lose the advantage of heat in making the spark jump (it would have to go the other way).  Perhaps someone with more electrical experience than I can correct me, but I think that is right for a mechanical system.  I have no clue how an electronic system would react, but not at all seems likely.

EDIT: Off work and had a few minutes to research this that has been on my mind this afternoon.  Found this article, which frankly is probably what I was recalling anyway.

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig104.htm

I'm betting your coil has been wired and plugs firing in reverse with the mechanical distributor and that the electronic distributor won't work that way.  New points and/or condensor might solve the problem (if those were the weak link previously), but not necessarily and I'd check polarity whether it does or doesn't.

EDIT2 - I'd also still check for whether you need the ballast ignition coil (as was apparently in when it stopped) or the higher resistance standard coil.  I found the following that may be helpful:

Determining Your Coil Type (Ballast vs. Standard)
It is important when buying a replacement coil that the correct type is selected for the vehicle’s ignition system to achieve acceptable life and performance. Lucas ignition systems have often been modified over the years and determining what is required may not be as simple as referring to the owner’s or service manual.
A sight check should be performed first. Some ballasted Lucas ignitions use a ballast resistor wire between the ignition switch and the coil (+) terminal (frequently pink in color). It is also possible that an external ballast resistor may be present instead of this wire. The ballast resistor will typically appear as a small ceramic brick (with wires) mounted in the vicinity of the coil itself and connected between the ignition switch and coil (+). Ballast ignition systems also have a wire between the coil (+) terminal and the starter solenoid. If the car’s electrical system is totally unmolested these visual clues may be enough to identify the ignition coil type installed/needed.
To confirm your needed coil type it is best to make electrical measurements with a volt/ohm meter. Start by performing the test shown in the top coil images measuring the resistance across the coil’s low-tension terminals with all the wires disconnected. Note this resistance value but do NOT presume it correctly identifies the coil needed. Perform the following additional test.
Re-attach the low-tension wires removed to perform the test. Connect the volt meter between the coil’s (+) terminal and chassis ground. Temporarily fit a jumper wire between coil (-) and chassis ground. The jumper wire will insure that current is flowing through the coil and any ballast components during the test. It is necessary for current to be flowing to correctly measure the coil’s operating voltage. With the meter and jumper wire connected, switch on the ignition and observe the meter. If the meter shows battery voltage (nominally 12V), the system is non-ballasted and needs a standard ignition coil. If the meter displays anything between 6V and 9V, a ballast-type ignition coil is required regardless of what type of coil is currently on the vehicle. Standard ignition coils will have a primary resistance close to 3 ohms while ballast ignition coils are typically between 1 ohms and 2 ohms.
Using a standard coil on a ballasted ignition system will result in low spark voltages potentially leading to running problems. Using a ballast-type coil on a standard ignition system (without a ballast resistor) will result in excessive current flowing through the ignition system. This will cause premature wear of the points and potentially lead to reduced coil life.

« Last Edit: Thursday,July 02, 2020, 05:26:06 PM by SENC »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #21 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 07:13:38 AM »
Reversing the polarity at the coil increases the voltage requirements to fire the plug.  Only really an issue in high load, high rpm situations.

It won't be positive ground as the alternator would spectacularly short out if so.

Typically point type coils have resistances in the 4 to 5 ohm range.  "High" performance point coils are in the 3 ohm range.  They giveth potential for higher spark voltages but also are hard on points due to the increased primary current.  Pertronix specifies a 3 ohm coil.  We always opened up the plug gaps to 0.030" to 0.032" after fitting Pertronix.

Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #22 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 08:44:50 AM »
Senc, Had not consumed everything you have written yet, But I did want to say my car has the distributor wire going to the + side of the coil. Yet, I pull the Dist from another engine and the previous owner tagged it - side. I swapped my dist wire to the neg side and nothing. replaced the wire and still NO.

Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #23 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 09:14:03 AM »
Reversing the polarity at the coil increases the voltage requirements to fire the plug.  Only really an issue in high load, high rpm situations.

It won't be positive ground as the alternator would spectacularly short out if so.

Typically point type coils have resistances in the 4 to 5 ohm range.  "High" performance point coils are in the 3 ohm range.  They giveth potential for higher spark voltages but also are hard on points due to the increased primary current.  Pertronix specifies a 3 ohm coil.  We always opened up the plug gaps to 0.030" to 0.032" after fitting Pertronix.
The coil that was installed when the engine stopped is currently reading 1.6ohms primary and 11.2k ohms secondary. The new pertronix coil is 3.8 ohms and 9.4Kohms. I have the points back in now gapped at about .015". Is that right? Is there a spec for the condenser? I have a newer old condenser but don't have the history on it. The distributor is connected to the positive side. Very frustrated at this point.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #24 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 10:07:38 AM »
Use the Pertronix coil.  1.6 ohms is too low for points.

- bump the engine until the points are closed.  Make sure the tranny is in neutral.

- turn on the ignition.

- check for power at the coil "+" terminal using a 12v test light (DVOM's can "smell" voltages that aren't really there).  Ok?  If not, go to the ignition switch and see what's up.

- check for power on the coil "-" terminal.

- power?  Then the points are dirty or there is a break somewhere.  It goes coil "-"/wire to distributor/distributor points wire/points/ distributor plate ground wire/distributor/block/block ground wire/battery

- no power?  Open the points with a non-conductive tool (finger, tooth pick, etc).  There should be power at the "-" coil terminal now.

- still no power?  Short in points to coil "-" terminal circuit: insulating washers missing failed in points or distributor wire, shorted condenser, poorly placed wire

- power?

- remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and hold a 1/4" from the block.

- open and close the points manually.

- no spark and everything else above good?  Bad condenser or coil, open coil wire

- spark?  You're good.
« Last Edit: Friday,July 03, 2020, 10:11:03 AM by jbcollier »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #25 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 10:10:16 AM »
On the lighter side, if you want to drive someone CRAZY.  Swap the coil wire for vacuum hose! 

Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #26 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 11:55:59 AM »
If I did this right, I attached a picture of the wiring per the Europa manual with edits in Red to show how mine is wired.

Offline surypap3

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #27 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 12:09:57 PM »
Use the Pertronix coil.  1.6 ohms is too low for points.

- bump the engine until the points are closed.  Make sure the tranny is in neutral.

- turn on the ignition.

- check for power at the coil "+" terminal using a 12v test light (DVOM's can "smell" voltages that aren't really there).  Ok?  If not, go to the ignition switch and see what's up.

- check for power on the coil "-" terminal.

- power?  Then the points are dirty or there is a break somewhere.  It goes coil "-"/wire to distributor/distributor points wire/points/ distributor plate ground wire/distributor/block/block ground wire/battery

- no power?  Open the points with a non-conductive tool (finger, tooth pick, etc).  There should be power at the "-" coil terminal now.

- still no power?  Short in points to coil "-" terminal circuit: insulating washers missing failed in points or distributor wire, shorted condenser, poorly placed wire

- power?

- remove the coil wire from the distributor cap and hold a 1/4" from the block.

- open and close the points manually.

- no spark and everything else above good?  Bad condenser or coil, open coil wire

- spark?  You're good.
Kids are in town and we are heading out on the boat (fortunately its running). Appreciate all you (et al) have provided and will go thru the check list tomorrow then update. Thx!!!

Offline SENC

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #28 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 02:37:15 PM »
If I did this right, I attached a picture of the wiring per the Europa manual with edits in Red to show how mine is wired.
I think you've drawn your problem, the coil- should be wired to the distributor, not the coil+.

In the original, is the extra appendage off the + to which the tach wire should be attached a ballast resistor - is that still on the old coil?

I don't have Europa experience, only with my Elan and Seven - but every standard coil I've seen has about 3-3.5 ohms resistance if for a non-ballasted ignition and roughly half that (1.4 ohms) for a ballasted system.  High energy/sport coils (for the Elan/Seven) are the same or slightly lower resistance than standard as I recall, like this Lucas Sport Coil: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=208&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=1305&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4bu5-4iy6gIVoQiICR3dpw6jEAQYBCABEgKihfD_BwE

My understanding (though crude) is that the typical 3ohm coils are ideal when they are getting 12v from the battery - but they don't do well/can't provide spark when getting much less than 12v (such as cold starts, etc.) - so the lower resistance 1.5ohm coils were developed as they could generate enough spark even down to around 7-9 volts.  The problem with the 1.5ohm coils comes when the system is back to generating 12v, like after the car is running and alternator/generator functioning - now because of lower resistance they'd be running so much wattage they'd burn up and/burn up points  Thus the ballast resistor, which adds another 1.5ohms of resistance between the battery and the coil (when not starting).

It seems to me your original coil was intended for a ballasted system (whether the ballast resistor is still there or still good, tbd I guess).  If it wasn't actually ballasted, then it may have burned up (or burned up the points and condensor) due to excessive wattage.  Your new coil is designed for non-ballasted systems, and appears to be wired incorrectly.  It may be that simply changing the wiring to the distributor will have you going.  If not, I'd begin to suspect there is a ballast resistor somewhere between the ignition and the coil, and adding 1.5ohms to the 3ohm coil would probably be enough resistance (as I understand it) that a good deal more than 12v would be required for a solid spark.  I welcome being corrected if I've misstated something.
« Last Edit: Friday,July 03, 2020, 04:31:33 PM by SENC »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TC Stopped While Running
« Reply #29 on: Friday,July 03, 2020, 04:10:27 PM »
Obviously it's wasn't wired that way or it wouldn't ever have run.

Your coil is 1.6 ohms.  That is actually correct IF you have the ballast resistor shown in the wiring diagram.  Otherwise fit the 3 ohm coil and leave the WY wire off.  The diagrams calls the ballast resistor a "cold start coil".  The WB wire goes from the coil to the distributor.  Your tach runs by measuring impulses on the ignition side.  There shouldn't be a wire from the coil "+" to the distributor/points.