Author Topic: TCS Valve Adjustment Question  (Read 1305 times)

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Offline thehackmechanic

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TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« on: Sunday,March 01, 2020, 04:28:08 AM »
I'm doing my first-ever valve adjustment after 700 miles since the rebuild. Though I've never done it on a shimmed engine like the TCS, I've done valve adjustments hundreds of times on other overhead cam engines with valve trains that have shafts and adjustable rockers. When I assembled the TCS' engine, it was enough of a pain just aligning the cam gears with the engine out of the car. It'll be all the more challenging with the engine IN the car since the front of the engine is up against the firewall. I can't see the timing marks on the cam gears without using a mirror. Because of this, I hate to have to pull the gears off and put them back on more than once.

So here's my question. Is there any reason why I can't (or shouldn't) rotate the engine a bit past TDC so all the pistons are partway down the bores, thus allowing each cam to be spun all the way around without rotating the engine? This would make it so that I could measure and verify the clearances before putting the gears and chain back on. The steps would be:

--One cam at a time, install the shims I've determined I need.
--Tighten down the journals.
--Measure the resulting clearances to verify I've gotten it right.
--If necessary, repeat the above steps.
--Do the same on the other cam.
--THEN set both cams back to #1 TDC, rotate the crank back to #1 TDC, and put the timing chain and gears back on, doing the careful alignment of the marks on the cam gears JUST ONCE.

What do you think?

Thanks.

--Rob
'74 TCS, 24k miles, up and running after 40 years
'72 BMW 2002tii
'72 BMW Bavaria
'73 BMW 3.0CSi
'79 BMW Euro 635CSi
'99 BMW Z3M Coupe
'99 BMW Z3
'96 Winnebago Rialta

Five books available on Amazon (www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=rob+siegel)

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #1 on: Sunday,March 01, 2020, 05:51:09 AM »
A few not unresolvable issues:

- Unless you are super careful while the chain is slack, doing it this way will probably mean the jack shaft gear may not end up in the same position.  Not a big deal but something to be aware of.

- If you are going to rotate a cam, the other cam MUST be out of the engine.  Otherwise valves from the rotating cam will hit the one or two open on the other cam.

- rotating a sprocket-less cam is not easy.

- you need to be SUPER careful to rotate the crank back to TDC the right way and rotating an engine in a Europa is not an easy nor precise operation.  Otherwise, bent valves.

- you still have to line up all the marks that you were complaining about in the first place.

So, yes it is possible.  Myself I would stick with the tried and true.  Also, just make your own temporary timing marks on the cam sprockets that you can see.  Finally, if your head was properly overhauled, you may not have to adjust any valves, perhaps only a few.
« Last Edit: Sunday,March 01, 2020, 06:20:10 AM by jbcollier »

Offline thehackmechanic

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,March 01, 2020, 05:54:30 AM »
JB, THANK YOU for the big heads up about valve interference. I didn't think of that.

And yes, I DID use a small straight-edge flush with the valve cover surface and some Wite-Out and make temporary marks on the back of the gear face of the cams.

--Rob
'74 TCS, 24k miles, up and running after 40 years
'72 BMW 2002tii
'72 BMW Bavaria
'73 BMW 3.0CSi
'79 BMW Euro 635CSi
'99 BMW Z3M Coupe
'99 BMW Z3
'96 Winnebago Rialta

Five books available on Amazon (www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=rob+siegel)

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #3 on: Monday,March 02, 2020, 08:43:28 AM »
Hmm, I don't think I'd be happy doing that. I'd be more concerned about damaging the cams because even with no compression they won't spin over that easily, you've got poor leverage on them.  But then again, I once broke an inlet cam so perhaps I'm just too cautious about such things.

Removing the spark plugs/cam cover and then just turning the engine by hand isn't that difficult to measure the initial settings.  The Europa is easy because you can just jack up the back, leave it in gear and roll the wheel to turn the engine. You could even use a socket on the front crank pulley to turn it over, with no spark plugs it's fairly easy.  You'll get more than one measurement at every stage (inlet/exhaust cams) so it isn't going to take that long.

You may not get it super accurate but it will be good enough to put you in the middle of the tolerance range.  And you can be sure that you're not going to bend any valves..... ;)

Offline edgefinder

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday,March 04, 2020, 10:22:35 AM »
Rob this an excellent question. If these were late model Japanese parts made to a high precision i'd say follow the manual. Small batches of parts from small shops made many years ago I say measure everything you can and assume nothing. Easy for me to say sitting a machine shop but please hear me out. Most motors if you rotate a cam and measure clearance with a feeler gage will have a few thousandths variation through the 180 degrees or so until the lobe bumps at each end of rotation. If the book says rotate the motor to this position and measure 2 or 3 valves at this point you will see some lobes are straight up and some are at 90 degrees to the bucket. That means your checking at a random point in the variable clearance range. I'm posting this before I read the manual but I will do that and reassemble my head and see what it measures. EuropaTC's suggestion of jack one rear wheel, chock the front, plugs out, hi gear, rotate the wheel with your foot to rotate motor and check clearance through the whole valve closed event not just one spot
 

Offline edgefinder

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #5 on: Friday,March 06, 2020, 10:53:32 AM »
I did a test and the only variation I got was the couple thousandths from worn cam bearing. So these are easy, point lobe up and check. I'm learning and been reading up on how many way's to screw up a twin cam. When shims get down to .08" or so watch out for valve end, shim and bucket fitting together correct. Wilkins book says under .07" is a waste of time. And what if some clown ground the end of the valve and you dont know it. Spring cap pocket is .626" diameter and my shims are .61" to .622" they will all be big ones when it goes together

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #6 on: Friday,March 06, 2020, 10:59:45 AM »
One thing I forgot to mention, sorry, is that you should loosen the alternator belt when checking the valve clearances.  Yes, it can make a difference.

Offline Fotog

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #7 on: Monday,April 27, 2020, 09:10:50 PM »
Reviving Rob's thread here, I have some concerns about how to go about this and could use some advice.  Though I'm mechanically inclined, this is beyond my automotive-mechanical experience. 

I took the cam cover off and re-torqued the head on my TC. 

I have checked the clearances, and I have just one exhaust valve that's tight, measuring .007.  All the others measure .009 (ok... spec is .009-.011).

The procedure sounds simple enough in the manual, but...

- Is there a possibility of dropping the chain off the jackshaft or crankshaft sprocket and either having trouble getting it back on or getting things out-of-sync?  That's my biggest concern.  Suggestions for how to handle this are appreciated.

-How about re-installation?  Might I expect any difficulty associated with depressing the valves/springs when reinstalling the camshaft?


Thanks, Vince Harris



Offline EuropaTC

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #8 on: Monday,April 27, 2020, 11:13:44 PM »
- Is there a possibility of dropping the chain off the jackshaft or crankshaft sprocket and either having trouble getting it back on or getting things out-of-sync?  That's my biggest concern.  Suggestions for how to handle this are appreciated.

-How about re-installation?  Might I expect any difficulty associated with depressing the valves/springs when reinstalling the camshaft?
Hi Vince,
It's a long time since I did mine but I think it went something like;

You've already got the clearances, but write it up on a clipboard, rotate engine a couple of times, have a coffee and double check the numbers.

Remove cam cover & spark plugs and rotate engine until timing marks are aligned. I'm incredibly cautions so I also check it's really are on TDC firing stroke from the distributor position. I use a mirror at the front of the engine to see the cam marks easier.

cable tie the cam sprockets to the chain in a couple of places. Not necessary but makes life that bit easier.

slacken the chain tensioner

Remove camshafts. I do one at a time and I can't recall for certain if I did this with the sprockets still in place but I think I would probably have taken them off because it makes removing the cams easier and it's only one bolt.  Because it's cable tied to the chain, putting it back is straightforward.

If you leave the cam sprockets in place then you'll probably need to split the chain to get the cams out. The chains on my cars have a split link so that's easy to do, but generally I prefer to leave the chain intact and around the crank sprocket.

Remove shims, measure, get new ones or swap around the old ones between valves if you're extremely lucky.  As you seem to be on bottom clearance throughout, that's probably not an option for you although you should be able to reduce the number of new ones required.

Because this isn't a regular job I'd consider replacing the oil seal at the end of the camshaft. It's probably fine now but you've disturbed it and might just damage it. They are cheap enough and if you put it back together and it leaks, you've got a lot of hassle to replace it.

And as all good workshop manuals say, replacement is the reverse of the disassembly procedure.  ;)
 
Once done, lube up cam bearings slot the cams into place. Replace cam caps, tighten up very slowly & evenly. There will be some spring pressure of course but any significant resistance before the cam caps are fully seated might mean somethings not aligned properly. Don't force it, that's how I broke an inlet cam in my young and arrogant youth....

Once all back together rotate engine, measure clearances, find you've got one out, scream, kick the cat, drink several beers, sit in the corner of the garage mumbling to yourself.......   :)

OTOH, in the real world, it's all gone perfectly.

Make a note of the valve number, final clearance and shim that you've put in. If you ever have to do the job again then you'll be able to measure up and order new shims so they are ready for when you pull it apart. Unless you're a high miler it's not likely you'll need to touch them again.

To be honest if everything is in clearance, even at the end of the range, I'd leave it until the job needs doing or the head is apart for some other reason. It's not difficult but it is a fiddly job and takes much longer than you might think.

Brian

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday,April 28, 2020, 06:10:36 AM »
The chain is routed through the block and is relatively confined side-to-side.  Falling off the crank sprocket is not a problem.

Zip-tying the chain to the cams works well as Brian has pointed out.

You only need to remove the exhaust cam and sort the one valve so do not remove and disturb everything else.

The cam may require "encouragement" to stay in the right position as you tighten it back down.  Tighten the caps evenly and slowly until secure.  Keeping an eye that it stays roughly in the right rotation.

What does happen a lot is that the cam chain jumps on the jackshaft sprocket.  I would line it up at TDC and then pop off the distributor cap and mark the position of the distributor rotor.  When it's back together, double check that the rotor is in the same position.  If not you will have to remove the distributor and reposition until it does.  Double check your ignition timing regardless as a last step.

Offline Fotog

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday,April 28, 2020, 07:35:11 AM »
Thanks to both of you.  I always find your advice to be especially useful.

I am going to replace the oil seal on the inlet camshaft.  That was one of the reasons to take off the valve cover initially, since the pulley for distributor drive was flinging oil about.  Not a ton, but messy anyway.

I'm thinking I can loosen up the inlet cam enough to get that seal out and the new one in without really taking the cam off.  I just need to lift that end about 1/4 in.  The caps would come off on the first one or two bearings nearest the seal, but maybe the others just need to be loosened.

What do you think?

Vince

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday,April 28, 2020, 08:27:06 AM »
I don't know if that would work, but it's been a couple of years since I last did that job. I think (note "think) I had to take all the caps off and jiggle the cam to come up vertically, I'm not sure it will tilt. 

Quite honestly, if you want to replace that seal then I'd want a vertical in/out to make sure the new replacement doesn't get damaged going back down. Taking cams off isn't difficult, it's just simple steps that are time consuming.  Actually, given what's going down at the moment around the world, it's perfect timing !

Brian

Offline Fotog

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday,April 28, 2020, 09:23:53 AM »
Ok.  Thanks for the advice, Brian.

Vince

Offline Fotog

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #13 on: Monday,May 11, 2020, 07:31:50 PM »
So....!  I took off the exhaust cam (only), tying-up the chain sprocket as I was still fearful that the chain could otherwise become slack and come off the crankshaft sprocket.  Measured and replaced the one shim that was required, and I'm having trouble replacing the camshaft.

My problem is that the chain seems to lack enough slack for me to re-install the sprocket on the front end of the camshaft, at its flange.  See the picture.

The photos show 1) how I tied the sprockets up, and 2) what it looks like preventing me from re-assembling it. 

I'm 'concerned' (let's say) that the chain developed enough slack during my work that it jumped a tooth on the crankshaft sprocket.  But the more logical side of my brain says that's not likely.  It's a big enough chain that it would have had to become very slack, it seems to me, and I took precautions.  I was careful.  I don't think it got very slack.

I haven't turned anything since I started the disassembly.  It's in gear and hasn't been moved.  Engine is at TDC.  The chain tension adjuster was slackened, but that only made for total slack between the sprockets of ~3/4 in. total vertical movement.

Any ideas about what is causing the problem and how to resolve it would be most appreciated!

Thanks,
Vince

Offline jbcollier

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Re: TCS Valve Adjustment Question
« Reply #14 on: Monday,May 11, 2020, 09:19:58 PM »
I think you're right.  It slipped a tooth on the crank gear.  First, relax.  As long as you don't try to start it, everything is fine.  Check to see if the chain is slack on the other side (down from the intake cam).  I expect it is.  If so, cut the ties holding the chain to the intake cam sprocket and move the chain along one tooth.  You should be back in business -- except you'll have to reset your ignition timing.