Help on a new purchase

[sandy]

Newbie
« Reply #5 on: Today at 06:48:10 PM »
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Well I would like to say hi. I am new to this board.  My name is Sandy. I do not own any Lotus's yet, but I am looking seriously at a 72 Europa 5 speed. I have some concerns and I am hoping you guys can walk me through a few of them. I have yearned for a JPS Special since I worked for a lotus dealer in 1974. This car is a beauty. The present owner is an engineer and a nice fellow and has done a frame off about 5 years ago. Lots of Banks parts and improvements. It appears he stopped short of the brakes and the gear linkage because it doesn't stop and I can't shift it. I can not believe the way you guys love these cars that they are this much trouble to find a gear. Is this the norm? Is there a fix? Should I pursue this? I think I already insulted him when I didn't jump at it. Any input here will be appreciated. Time may be important.  I would hate for my dream car to slip away. Looking forward to talking to all of you.

[EuropaTC]

Hi Sandy,

Firstly, welcome to the forum. It doesn't matter if you haven't got a Lotus, enthusiasm is what counts.

Right, what about the gearchange ?  Well, if we rule out any fault in the gearbox, the most likely cause of poor gear selection will be the linkage. The Europa has a long linkage to the gearbox and lots of joints that can wear to give you too much slop for a tight change. But having said that, all the parts are available and it's a simple nut and bolt job to get it working properly and whilst it might not be as good as something like a recent MR2 for instance, you can get a reasonable change.

A question - when you say you can't shift, is it only with the engine going ?  A sticking clutch is quite common on a car which hasn't been used in a few months and the symptoms are that you can move the lever around without the engine going but once started and you depress the clutch, you can't select any gear. If you switch off, put it in gear and then start with the clutch depressed, quite often the car will take off down the road  (not to be recommended when facing a garage wall    )

The brakes are fairly simple problems, nothing unusual and all parts are from the Triumph range of cars. Some folks do rear disc conversions but for road use the standard disc/drum setup is fine.

Brian 

[Bainford]

Hello Sandy, and welcome to the forum. Lots of friendlt help available here for your upcoming Europa project.

It's tough to add anything to the excellent info Brian provided. As mentioned, these are simple cars and the vast majority of parts are available through one source or another. The Europas are quite easy to work on, and are perfect for someone who loves to tinker as well as enjoying an uncompromised, enthusiastic driving demeanor. Shift linkage problems are common, but can be repaired. The brakes are also simple (especially if the vacuum boosters have been removed) and are made of readily available and reasonably priced components.

Good luck and let us know how you make out. Cheers.

[cal44]

Welcome Sandy,

many factors involved here.  How much does the guy want for the car?  Any frame rust,  how are shut lines, do the windows work.  Looking down the sides.....is it fairly smooth..........the usual stuff.

Brakes are a can o' corn and like the others, those stinkin' boosters are a pain but just install a different master cylinder and dump the boosters.   The shift can be sorted, stuff wears out.

Keep asking questions. 

mike

[sandy]

   First of all, thank you guys for chiming in. Brian, you brought up the clutch. I do not believe that it is sticking. The owner got through the first test drive with no problem, (but he did say it is the most difficult car to drive he has ever owned.) But I do believe I felt it chatter when I took it out. Mike and Bainford, you both brought up the booster issue. The owner had already removed it and changed the master. Just the back brakes need to be sorted. He suggested a Miata setup back there. All I remember is that between hunting for a gear and sliding through stop signs, I was doing all I could to not run down any dog walkers or joggers. Mike the car has some other issues, yes. Like the drivers window's reluctance to move much. An oil leak from some kind of tube from the head to the block down under the carbs. Some electrical issues. (Imagine that!) Sticking throttle and choke cables.  These things are all doable if I could just get in and drive. It is certainly not my Miata. But it looks great, nice paint, no rust below. He wants $8,000.00  I have seen prices all over the place for these cars. I really don't know much about pricing them. It's got 15,000 miles on an engine rebuild, but he says it uses oil. Odometer reads 150,000. Any additional thoughts?

[EuropaTC]

Hi Sandy,

It sounds like the problem is the linkage, although if you're coming from a Miata which probably has one of the best changes around, well there's going to be a learning curve.  I've never been able to change gear quickly and 3->2 needs thought even now, but generally speaking when it's adjusted properly it's not the worst change I've had.  (I've owned an S1 Elise from new and wouldn't say that's much better, and that car has 30-odd years of development to help it along)

Rear brakes are fairly simple and a lot of folks have commented that they don't contribute much to the overall stopping of the cars. If the front calipers are set correctly it should be on a par with modern cars as far as stopping distances are concerned; not up with modern Lotus's but certainly not a problem in normal traffic. Most newcomers manage to lock up the front brakes far too easily, if you can't do that at say 20mph with a vicious stab on the pedal then maybe it's the fronts that need looking at first.

If it's a Twin cam then it will use oil. How much is the question ? My cars certainly won't go between changes without topping up, whereas most modern cars will do so and hence it comes as a surprise. My thoughts would be that a puff of smoke at start-up is normal (no seals on the valve guides) but that should clear within seconds and the engine run without any noticeable smoking. 

The leak from the rubber tube between the head and block might be the source of the oil consumption ?  You might get away with a good clean then lots of sealant but to do the job properly the head needs lifting, the rubber tube goes about 1/2" into the head & block and is quite stiff so won't bend easily.

Window motors do seize up with lack of use and it's not unheard of for the grease itself to clog everything up. If it moves at all then it's fixable, it's only an electric motor and nothing complex. A good clean of the motor and connections (earthing ?) might be all it needs.

Brian

[sandy]

   Brian thank you. You are most helpful. Have you any thoughts on the asking price of this car?
   PS. I can not wait for Chip Foose's Europa overhaul. The timing for me is amazing. Thank you again, Sandy.

[EuropaTC]

I can't help on pricing Sandy, I'm on the wrong side of the pond and also of an age where every time I see an old Lotus advertised over here my first reaction is "how much ?"

Mike (Cal44) is probably the best guy to ask about the market over there,  he buys more Lotus cars than anyone I know ! 

Brian

[cal44]

Sandy,
how much work/wrenching do you do on your own? That is important.

Example:
We got in a '72 Elan Plus 2 three months ago.  Bought it with pictures as the car was out of state.  So far work hours have easily topped 100 and have spent  nearly $5k just in parts...............we bought the car right so can't get beat up.

Got any pix? interior, engine bay, frame where possible etc.  Throw 6K cash at him........see what happens....it's just business.
Make sure you have the cash with you..........seeing green goes a long way.  Clear title........? 
mike

[3929R]

Have you looked at values on Hagerty?  I'm not sure how they're derived or how accruate they are it's something.
$8k is below a condition 4 car ($10,100).  Condition 4 is the lowest/poorest in their value guide.
http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=1330367

Nada also shows low retail of $6,075, average retail of $12,100, and high retail of $23,400.  Not sure how much stock to put into these numbers either.    http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars 

I'd say if you want it, can afford it, and have no other options, buy the thing and don't look back (can't see much in those mirrors anyway). 

[sandy]

   Boy you guys are great. Lot of good advice. To San Diego. I can turn a pretty good wrench when I get motivated. Finding enough time is the problem there. But making an offer might not be a bad idea. Mark, Hagerty has a good system of evaluating cars. I had forgotten about that. I'm as good as there, kool, thanks. And Brian, I had no idea you were so far away. These forums are pretty amazing. I'm talking to Europe and didn't even know it. I don't know how anybody restored a car before this internet thing came along. I will try to keep you guys apprised of what happens here. Thanks for all the help. Sandy, Connecticut, USA.

[EuropaTC]

(part quote)
These forums are pretty amazing. I'm talking to Europe and didn't even know it. I don't know how anybody restored a car before this internet thing came along.

 

Yep, I know exactly what you mean. I ran my Elan in the 70s and it was really hard work getting some parts or finding out how to do things when you were the only guy in town with one ! The internet has made it so much easier to find parts and forums like this where you can post pictures really help to spread the knowledge around.

Personally I get a real kick out of talking to enthusiasts on the other side of the  world, just as much as if I meet up with another Lotus owner over here IRL.  Good luck with the purchase, let's know how it goes and if you do decide to jump in.

Brian