Hello new user with a few questions

[BDA]

If I were looking for a project car, I wouldn't consider the paint because it's likely that any car I looked at would need paint, but I would check out the body for damage. The frame is the most important thing to look at because if that needs repair or replacement, the project is exponentially bigger.

I suppose it's possible that the roll bar links were bent from hitting a speed bump but it must have been a steep one and he must have been going pretty fast. That would make me look for other damage in the area. In fact, I might assume some things about the way he drives and be more diligent looking for other bent pieces.

Something else to consider is if the PO (and how many POs are there?) did any modifications. Some people have a vaunted opinion of their skills and end up making things worse. I would be careful about anything that isn't easily reversible (said the guy is not shy about changing just about everything on his car!). From what I can tell, that isn't a problem on this car.

I don't consider that I have any aptitude in pricing "discarded" Europas and I would only consider the cost of repairs if I were going to sell it or I have a budget. If I were interested in selling it, I'd keep it as stock as possible and concentrate on making it the best Europa (like this one: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1973-lotus-europa-special-3/). Expect to spend more than you expected. For that reason I think it makes more sense to spend it on yourself.

After ten years outside, I would expect an engine rebuild would be in the cards. I think you would be really lucky to get away with just rebuilding the carbs. I can easily be wrong and I hope I am. The same goes for the tranny.

And then only you know if you are susceptible to mission creep. For some, it takes a lot of discipline to do what needs to be done and not take use every instance where you take a part off the car that needs to be taken off to take another part off that doesn't to make it a little prettier or "better".

I hope that helps a little.

[4129R]

I sheared the roll bar pick up stud on the bottom of the coil-over putting a Europa in the garage when the gravel drive was lower than the concrete garage floor.

I have also sheared the weld where the drop link attached to the roll bar, just towing a car with 4 flat tyres on wet grass.

Those are the most fragile parts of the front suspension.

[JR73]

Firstly 

Looking at the pics etc on the links and reading your description of what you saw on the brown car I would be treating both at pretty much the same level. Would consider both to need comprehensively going through - front anti roll bar being broken would make me want to check the chassis and suspension thoroughly for example.

There really isn't that much to Europas and there are enough places around to get parts and advice from - would you be looking to have a completely original spec car for example or would you prefer to modernise/modify to suit yourself? Depending on your answer, which of the two is more suited to what you think of when you are finished rebuilding/refurbing? (Is one more complete with original fixtures and fittings which would suit your desire to build a concours car?! Does one have enough to get you started down the path of a modified road/track orientated car...?)

Have seen far worse condition Europas used as a starting point tbh, a good car could be made from either providing you have the time and interest (bit of money helps too!).

[jgaiti]

Jr73 totally understand your point of view. And going by that I’ve already started researching parts . Although I’m not overly concerned about the fiber glass work on the white one, I’d rather not if possible. They both have good points on them but the initial investment concerns me. 8k and finding the engine or trans is shot vs 2800 starting point and expecting to rebuild either.

And Im thankful for everyones input. It has opened my eyes to different things that I didn’t think of. I’m going to be looking at both of them again over  the weekend to make a final decision.

[EuropaTC]

It's interesting to see what some folks class as "good condition"......   

There's more to see on the brown car and if the original owner was the seller's father, then it might be a "one driver" car. It's clearly had some money spent in the past, the exhaust manifold looks aftermarket and is that an electronic ignition system on the engine bay wall ?  It looks reasonably complete, original steering wheel, etc, which means you might get away with restoring rather than replacing lots of parts - instruments/dash/etc.

Broken suspension wouldn't bother me, the pins on the bottom of the dampers are only 3" or so above the road and driving over a decent sized pothole could easily bend/break that. I would be concerned about missing glass; windscreens are reasonably easy to get, door/rear window glass less so. I think perspex alternatives are around but it's something to consider as the door glass is unique and not easily replicated. Check out replacements before you go for that one.

Both cars will need fibreglass work once the paint is off, at the very least both engines will need stripping down & checking based on the external condition & notes.  I expect both cars will need complete carpet/vinyl trim replacement but if the originals are present in either car that means it's possible to DIY with patterns to work with.

I find it hard to offer sensible advice after seeing both adverts and daft though it sounds, I'd base part of my decision on the seller. If the guy is just flipping a car he found in a barn then it's a real leap of faith; if he's selling his dad's old (one owner) car then I'd be more inclined to haggle with the latter. Take a clipboard, jot down major replacements and current market values and I'd expect to make a case to get below $8k.

I can't see a positive return on either car but at least you'll know what you're in for. Would I take one if I wanted a Europa ? Yes, certainly and I'd probably try to shave the brown car's price down.

Brian

 

[4129R]

I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.

If the cheap one has a five speed gearbox, bite his hand off and go for it.

[BDA]

I agree about the the five speed but NG3s are still available but of course they do require some modifications.

[surfguitar58]

I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.

Can I assume you mean obtaining a gearbox? Not the physical act of replacement?

t

[4129R]

I believe the hardest part on the whole of any Europa to replace is the gearbox. Made from 100% unobtainium.

Can I assume you mean obtaining a gearbox? Not the physical act of replacement?

t

To find a replacement 5 speed gear box to buy is near impossible.

To re-fix the gearbox is quite easy.

[jbcollier]

To find a 365 is not easy.  I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year.  Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000.  Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear.  That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace.  More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.

I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395.  It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well.  Here's my source:

http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm

Why does 5th gear fail?  Oil leaks and negligent owners.  If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry.  It then heats up and wears.  At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year.  I also check mine before and after a long trip.  If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.

[surfguitar58]

To find a 365 is not easy.  I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year.  Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000.  Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear.  That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace.  More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.

I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395.  It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well.  Here's my source:

http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm

Why does 5th gear fail?  Oil leaks and negligent owners.  If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry.  It then heats up and wears.  At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year.  I also check mine before and after a long trip.  If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.

I design a lot of custom geartrains for my robotics day job. If we knew the specs of the tooth form one might be able to reverse engineer the Hewland gear and machine a replacement using something like this (https://www.khkgears.us/catalog/?cid=helical-gears ) as a blank, and case harden it after machining. Also, this company (rushgears.com ) will make any gear you want, for astronomical prices.

Tom

PS - Sorry for the thread hijack jgaiti, back to regular programming.

[jgaiti]

🤣🤣High jack away!!! Useful info is good no matter what. EuropaTc great outlook and does make sense. Only had a chance to revisit one this weekend. So I’m still up in the air.

[jbcollier]

I believe Hewland is willing to make them again but only in a significant run.

[Chuck Nukem]

There are not too many gear shops down here in TX, but I do deal with a company who machines and grinds gears for industrial pump applications and PTO attachments. They grind all of their gears to reduce noise and increase life for this type of application. Surf, do you think this application would need a ground gear? Or could you get away with a hobbed and hardened gear? There is another company close to me called Martin Sprocket. They sell gears, sprockets, and blanks as well. Most of their stuff is hobbed, not ground.

I am quite interested in the gear machining process as it is something of a novelty down here. Lots of aluminum aerospace milling and oil and gas work in NTX.

I may have a few other connections who could machine these gears if there was interest. I have a customer who does aftermarket parts for offroad racing. He is getting ready to buy a gear hobbing machine for some of his product line.

To find a 365 is not easy.  I usually only see one or two for sale in any given year.  Pricing varies, say $800 to $2000.  Most of the wearing parts are available with one exception, the Hewland supplied 5th gear.  That gear makes unobtainium seem commonplace.  More than a few 365s have been swapped for NG3s due to a bad 5th gear.

I have heard that it "may" be possible to fit a 5th from a 395.  It's a bit involved as the Renault and Hewland gears have different selector forks as well.  Here's my source:

http://gglotus.org/ggtech/europa-gearbox/europa-gearbox.htm

Why does 5th gear fail?  Oil leaks and negligent owners.  If the oil level falls, 5th gear is the first place that starts to run dry.  It then heats up and wears.  At the very least check your transaxle level at the beginning of the year.  I also check mine before and after a long trip.  If you always park in the same spot, the ground underneath will tell you if oil starts leaking more than usual.

I design a lot of custom geartrains for my robotics day job. If we knew the specs of the tooth form one might be able to reverse engineer the Hewland gear and machine a replacement using something like this (https://www.khkgears.us/catalog/?cid=helical-gears ) as a blank, and case harden it after machining. Also, this company (rushgears.com ) will make any gear you want, for astronomical prices.

Tom

PS - Sorry for the thread hijack jgaiti, back to regular programming.

[surfguitar58]

do you think this application would need a ground gear? Or could you get away with a hobbed and hardened gear?

To be honest I design and spec the darn things, but I am no expert in how they are manufactured. I assume car xmission gears are hobbed because it is cheap and hardened because they have a long and difficult wear requirement. Hard to tell without having one to look at.

I recently bought a 365 gearbox to swap for the 352 in my TCS, but I am hoping it will go in and work perfectly without me having to crack the case open. Fingers crossed. If not I guess I will have a Hewland 5th gear to reverse engineer and replace.

Tom