Reassembling my crossflow

[dakazman]

 Califkid,
 I have reread your entire thread again.  PLEASE, for your own good listen to GalvinT and JB, and the future voices in your head and...
 
Remove the engine and inspect it.

Err on the side of caution, which you have expressed since page 1. Flush the motor and clean all passages. Parts are not cheap and now at least from my little understanding of these engines is replace the distributor gear. You have a unique power plant there . Talk to a machinist.
 
Dakazman

[califkid_66]

Yes and yes it is going to be taken apart completely and reassembled my first idea was not to touch the base i remember JB ´s advice to remove the liners and reinstall the plan now is to take it all apart i will measure every part and change the ones that need to be changed now i have been speaking and asking around about my oil pump drive shaft cause that’s what it’s called!!
And i think i found the reason for the rubbing grinding
According to a person that is very nolegable in these engine the oil pump gear is pushed upwards when turning and the distributor gear hold the oil pump drive gear at the right height so being that my head had work done on it and the distributor had no gasket under it the distributor was pushing down on the oil pump drive gear and did not leave any clearance under
 My head mesures 3.625  witch is 56 thousand of an inch lower so to get the gear at the right height i would have to shim with gaskets under the distributor then i would have some clearance under

[califkid_66]

This is a copy of my conversation with Richard Mann i thought this info might be useful at least one less mistery to solve



I just looked at 3 dizzy drives. All the same. All show the same thin annulus on the bottom side which is the contact face. My deduction is the dizzy drive is being loaded downward. This means the head is pushing it down or the dizzy.

If it's the head, that means the block (and liners) have been decked. I've done this to a few engines to get compression into double digits.

The dizzy should have a paper gasket under it. Maybe it's not there.




Ok if i understand correctly when the engine turns the oil pump drive gear sort of kept at the right operating hight by the distributor so the distributor that i had on the head must have put pressure on the gear and made it rub on the block

If this is what you’re saying then it makes a lot of sense cause the head had work done on it and and i measured it with a caliper 3.625 thickness and a 807 head is 3.681 so my head is 56 thousands of an inch lower witch mean my distributor was probably pushing the drive gear down and there was no gasket
I had the fuego distributor but now i have a r17 one but i want to get a programable one
So i should measure the clearance between the drive gear and where the distributor sits and adjust the clearance with gaskets



Well done! I think you've deduced the root cause of the problem. I think Renault recommend no more than 1mm or 40 thou. They say this to avoid the issue you've encountered. I've removed over 3mm (head & block) on some engines, and lots of little tweaks are required.

Good luck!

[jbcollier]

It is difficult to diagnose anything from a few pictures.  As you assemble an engine, you check clearances and fit as you go along.  Assume nothing, check everything.

[califkid_66]

I know you have a lot of experience that is why i will do like you said i am taking it all apart and gonna start from scratch it’s just nice to figure out problems not to repeat them im gonna get another drive gear and i think the gear on the cam is removable but im not there yet i got three more books coming in  im gonna order all gasket and parts once’s everything is apart and measured i just wanted to put the head on  but after seeing the gear problem i don’t want to waste my time and redo it twice
Im going to do it once but the right way so i might have a bunch of questions in the future!!

[jbcollier]

If someone says "rebuilt".  I hear "slapped together".

[califkid_66]

I guess that’s what happened to that engine it was a bunch of parts put together in a hurry if they would have done it right they would have checked the clearance for the drive gear so im not gonna take any chances  im gonna clean and paint the parts while im at it

[GavinT]

G’day, califkid,

It looks like Richard is on the money but you’re also conflating two actions.

1. Viewed from the timing cover end, the engine turns clockwise.
The camshaft obviously also turns clockwise.
The dizzy drive is engaged on the outside of the cam and thus will tend to rise on it’s spline as the cam rotates.
The underside of the head is what limits the upward travel of the dizzy drive.
You should notice witness marks on the underside of the head where the dizzy drive contacts.

2. The distributor doesn’t control the ride height of the dizzy drive and has no ability to accept that thrust load.

Therefor, if the dizzy wasn’t shimmed to take into account the head having been skimmed, it’s entirely possible that the dizzy has sustained internal damage around the dizzy shaft bushing.

I’d check for axial play in the dizzy shaft which may have ground it’s way upward into the dizzy body.
Dismantle the dizzy to inspect.

[califkid_66]

Im gonna check but im not using the distributor that was on the engine it was the fuego distributor
I have a r17 distributor but the plan was to get a programable like JB
Like i said im gonna start from scratch one part at a time

[GavinT]

OK.
A programable dizzy would likely be set up for a stock head thickness.
You’ll need to assess that dizzy also.

[califkid_66]

Im still waiting on my workshop manuel but i have two little questions that are bothering me
I know for measuring crankshaft and conecting rod bearing i can use plastigage

How do i measure the camshaft bearings ?
 And my second question is where the oil pump drive gear is located in the block it slides on the shaft
but shouldn’t the outside of the gear have a bearing on the block
Im talking about where you slide in the drive gear  cause its only a hole for the shaft to go through but wouldn’t it’s purpose to keep the gear against the cam gear what are the tolerance for that part and if its out of tolerance or out of round do i have to get the hole machined and get oversized drive gear  or am i overthinking
After this i should be ok for a while thanks again for your help

[GavinT]

Hmmm . . I don’t know how one might easily measure camshaft clearances because it essentially only bears on the lower half while the upper half of the cam is unconstrained apart from the cam nose.

I’ve never heard of cam journal clearances being an issue and the same goes for the dizzy/oil pump drive gear.
Both the cam and the drive gear simply run in the ally block which is quite common.

Also, if I recall, there’s no clearance spec referenced in the manual for either component.
My presumption would be that if inspection reveals some significant damage, say, caused by debris in the oil, then the Renault recommendation would likely be to replace the block.

So, I’d say that apart from an inspection to ensure there’s no damage, no one measures it. 

[jbcollier]

Have a good look at the camshaft bearing journals and the bearing shell surfaces.  Smooth?  No grooves or ridges?  Camsahft bearing journal sizes should be in the manual.  If there is any doubt about the camshaft bearing shells, replace them.

Plastiguage is used to check oil clearance on assembly.  It does not check crank journals for wear, true or condition.  The tools to properly check out a crankshaft are very expensive.  The same with the connecting rods which can be bent, out of round, etc.  Take the camshaft, crank, rods, pistons, sleeves and block (with bearing caps) to a good machinist for inspection.  Save yourself some money, and win the machinist's respect, and bring him meticulously clean parts.

When disassembling the engine, MARK EVERYTHING!  Liner positioning orientation, same with the pistons, connecting rods (and caps) and main bearing caps.  This is extremely important.

Also keep your top end bits organized so everything goes back together with the same bearing surfaces in the same place.  So keep your push-rods, valves, followers, valve springs, caps, etc all in order.

[califkid_66]

Took the timing chain cover off it looks pretty good sprockets look new chain and tensioner to all tight
But !! I tried moving the cam no loose axial but there is movement if i push and pull i think i got the tolerance in the workshop i have  so that’s another little problem Im going to use my dial gage to measure how much see how much movement i have

[califkid_66]

I was posting at the same time !!
Like I said said im going to take it apart but i wanna measure the parts and see the condition before ordering i was under the impression that using platigage and dragging a fingernail on the bearings would let me now if they where use and needed changing
I have talked to michel at alpine America he told me to disassemble my head that he would test it the thing is i don’t want to spend to much money on this engine bearing gaskets distributor is ok  i don’t mind having it checked by a machinist but i don’t
want to spend  ridiculous amount of money and i want to do it myself
The reason i bought this car is to play with it learn stuff  and feel the pride of having accomplished something i have micrometers dial gages and calipers and straight edge i will bring the parts to a machinist to assess their condition if the crank needs a regrind no problem ill get oversized bearing
For now im slowly taking it apart and making a list of what i notice that might not be ok