New Member with a dilemma...

[Gcthree]

I've just signed-on to the forum.  Great resource.

My dilemma?  I've owned 2 '73 Twin Cams in the past. The first was a metallic brown/black '73/4-speed Special bought in 1977 from a guy in Brooklyn, NY.  Got it home to Queens to find a 50lb. cement bag in the front compartment...ostensibly to 'hold down the nose?'.  I was in the midst of a restoration of the car when a divorce intervened and I lost the car.  Roll the calendar forward to 1992 and the purchase of another '73 Twin Cam in dark red with Oatmeal interior. The car had a Weber head and sidedrafts. It needed plenty of work to get it right, and Banks shipped very large boxes to me. Upon completion, I sold the car for reasons I still cannot explain.

These days, I have a '94 S4 Esprit that (arguably) is an extremely well presented car with an extensive engine-out service performed within the last 6 months. Nothing was left untouched. Runs, drives and looks amazing....but it's not a Europa.

With limited space and budget, something always has to 'give' in my automotive world and though my extremely knowledgeable Lotus guru tells me to hold onto the Esprit, once you've caught the Twin Cam bug, it never goes away. 

I'm interested in the thoughts of those on the forum on an exhange from Esprit to Europa. I'd trade for the right car in the right condition, but I'm sensing that there is a pricing void favoring the Esprit, and it's best if I sell it first.

Of Note:
My first ride in a Twin Cam came in 1973 at a dearlership in Greenvale, Long Island. It was called Gran Tourisimo and the collection of cars they had was nothing short of amazing: 2 Porsche RS60 spyders sitting in a garage in the back lot; a GT40, a 427 SC Cobra, a Ferrari Daytona raced at Le Mans and the list was extensive. To think, the Cobra was a $10,000 car back then...my friend Steve and I would pilgrimage to Gran Tourisimo monthly to be amazed...and to drool on the Twin Cams parked outside on the lot!  On one visit, a sympathetic sales person offered to take me for a ride and I've never forgotten.  Andy Graham at Lotus was kind enough to track down a 1974 dealer listing in his archive, and there it was listed as Lotus dealer.

[BDA]

  Gcthree! Glad you're here!

Interesting and somewhat sad story that you still have not reconnected to your preferred toy car. I'm a little confused about your buddy's advice to hold onto the Esprit [because] once you've caught the TC bug, it never goes away. Did I miss something?

Are you interested in restoring a Europa or do you just want to drive into Lotus Land? I would suggest you join Lotus Ltd., the Lotus club for the Americas. There is usually a Europa for sale in the club magazine. Also check out eBay and bringatrailer.com. The nicer ones will usually end up on bringatrailer.com.

Good luck and keep us informed!

[dakazman]

 

gc3,
   First of all welcome to the forum. Your esprit looks great, aI would keep it . I don't know if you have a dilemma or lack of space or like most car guys, low on money . Most europa's are not daily drivers. There are many post of cars for sale in the,for sale section, also rollers, which will need some work and then you can order more big boxes of parts. LOL.   
welcome again,
Dakazman

[JR73]

 
Your Esprit looks great in the picture, do you use it Daily? - Only asking as i'm wondering if you would be intending to use the Europa daily if it replaced the Esprit?! - That is possible, depending on the mileage you cover etc...?!

I'm guessing that your Lotus Guru is suggesting you keep hold of the Esprit because he has seen how the price of them has risen quite dramatically over the last few years? - Cars that could be bought 5 years ago for £12,000 are now selling for £35,000 plus (I'm in the UK).
I'm also assuming from your post that you can see the Europa values aren't quite as high as Esprit values so a swap would have to happen with a cash adjustment in your favour? - A REALLY nice TC can command serious money though so i suppose it depends what you are looking for? You should get a fair bit more for your Esprit now than if you sold it 5+ years ago so i suppose you could end up with a little more money to shop with if you sold it first...

Personally I would sell my own Esprit in a heartbeat without shedding a single tear, my Europa on the other hand would have to be prised from my cold dead hands!!! (Nothing to dislike about the Esprit, just my affection for the Europa is far greater!!)

Ultimately, if you have a desire to own another TC it will happen eventually - regardless of sensible thinking and other peoples opinions!!!

[Gcthree]

Already a member of Lotus Ltd!  Great club!

I'm not opposed to a restoration project, assuming the degree of disrepair is not terminal nor the parts cost investment exceeding the value of the car. I don't mind the labor.   I'm extremely hands-on, having recently completed the restoration of a couple of Cosworth Vega projects; one being a black/gold barn find that sat for 33 years, and the 2nd was a blue/white neglected 3,100 mile car that recently sold at the Mecum Kissimmee auction for $25.3k (by the person who purchased it from me).  BTW, both Cossies were original lacquer paint cars that I brought back to life via 100+ hours of color sanding & polishing.

I also recently did a complete restoration of an '89 928S4/5-speed that I once owned in 1995 and bought it back 16 years later and set course to restore it to how it was during my first ownership.

I keep looking at the JPS on Kurt Tanner Motorcars' site, but the notion of $12k for a car need THAT much work keeps me at bay.  I love the Blue TC on Ragtops and Roadsters site, but $35k is a steep hill to climb.

[tedtaylor]

Already a member of Lotus Ltd!  Great club!

I'm not opposed to a restoration project, assuming the degree of disrepair is not terminal nor the parts cost investment exceeding the value of the car. I don't mind the labor.   I'm extremely hands-on, having recently completed the restoration of a couple of Cosworth Vega projects; one being a black/gold barn find that sat for 33 years, and the 2nd was a blue/white neglected 3,100 mile car that recently sold at the Mecum Kissimmee auction for $25.3k (by the person who purchased it from me).  BTW, both Cossies were original lacquer paint cars that I brought back to life via 100+ hours of color sanding & polishing.

I also recently did a complete restoration of an '89 928S4/5-speed that I once owned in 1995 and bought it back 16 years later and set course to restore it to how it was during my first ownership.

I keep looking at the JPS on Kurt Tanner Motorcars' site, but the notion of $12k for a car need THAT much work keeps me at bay.  I love the Blue TC on Ragtops and Roadsters site, but $35k is a steep hill to climb.

Look at it this way.... you buy the $12K JPS and spend over $20K in restoration costs to end up with a car valued at what the blue one is now.   You either pay now or later... 


Also, don't under estimate that $12K JPS.   Yes, it's a TC Special, BUT i firmly believe that the genuine numbered badged car adds $5K to $10K to the price of a finished car.   I've had two now (#185 and #059) and have sold them both with premium pricing added in soley because they were genunine numbered badged JPS cars.   Yes, that $12K car is rough indeed, but then again, it's not just a run-of-the-mill TC Special.

[tedtaylor]

oh, and very nice Vega Cosworth.   I love those compact cars of old, especially a Pinto....don't ask me why, but fond memories indeed. 

[jbcollier]

I agree with Ted about the numbered JPS Europas.

Sorry, can't get excited about the Vegas.  I unfortunately had the not-so-much pleasure of working on them when they were new.  For once there was truth in advertising:

https://goo.gl/images/okjosr

Moog made a special shim pack so you could bring the alignment back into spec due to the front end folding in on itself.

[BDA]

I think it's a personal choice. The JPS dash badge isn't worth thousands of dollars to me, but if I were to buy this or any JPS, it would be for eventual sale. There's no doubt that for many people, the cachet of that badge is worth the extra cost, though.

[BDA]

I forgot to mention abetter.bid. They have an S2 right now and they seem to get them in occasionally.

[Gcthree]

I agree with Ted about the numbered JPS Europas.

Sorry, can't get excited about the Vegas.  I unfortunately had the not-so-much pleasure of working on them when they were new.  For once there was truth in advertising:

https://goo.gl/images/okjosr

Moog made a special shim pack so you could bring the alignment back into spec due to the front end folding in on itself.

You're right-on with the Cosworth.  I could never erase from my mind the Cosworth that Car and Driver built for rallying back in the day; left a lasting impression on me.  I (sort of) backed into the black/gold car via a tossed eBay bid that actually won when the winning bid backed-out.  I figured 'what the heck' as it was, after all, a Cosworth engine.  Turns out when all said, done and restored...it was just a crappy little domestic coupe (though good looking...) with a great engine.  I published many photos of the restoration on-line, and the fellow with the blue car traded me + cash.  Again, I figured 'what the heck' and spent an easy 1,000 hours on it's sympathetic restoration given the incredibly low mileage of this car. But, in the end, it was still a crappy American 'not-so-compact' coupe with a great engine....which is why they no longer grace my garage space.

[surfguitar58]

The Cosworth Vega got me thinking, wouldn’t an Elan Twin Cam engine and trans bolt right into a Ford Pinto? Same block and all. Not that anyone should. Tap the rear end of the Pinto for a neat fireworks display.
t

[Bainford]

The Cosworth Vega got me thinking, wouldn’t an Elan Twin Cam engine and trans bolt right into a Ford Pinto? Same block and all.

I've long considered the opposite swap, fitting the Pinto 2.0 or 2.3 SOHC engine into a TC powered Lotus. These engines are well designed and can make big power. With aluminium block and heads available through the aftermarket and lots of performance parts available. Even the Ford 2.8 l V-6, which is very compact, would fit in a Lotus with minimal fuss, though the v block would have a weight penalty.