Author Topic: handling issues at speed  (Read 1953 times)

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Offline Europa73

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handling issues at speed
« on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 02:32:01 PM »
Hi all,

I was hoping to get your input or thoughts on the below.

This summer on the highway I noticed that the steering on the car very twitchy and when I hit any bump the back end seemed almost a little loose.

I changed the Uj’s and ensured everything was torqued to the right settings.

Then watching the recording on my car on youtube it looked to me as through the rear drivers side wheel would turn in on a left hand corner.

I jacked up the car - all seems tight but I thought the camera does not lie.


The video is I the below link


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoBTtpW7F7I&t=89s


Left hand corners at 14 secs and 1 min 43 secs in.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated,


« Last Edit: Monday,December 03, 2018, 04:00:29 PM by Europa73 »
also restoring 69 Elan +2 and driving a 1975 TR6

Offline BDA

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #1 on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 03:50:14 PM »
Can you remind us about your car? Have you made any changes to your suspension? Are you using the stock spring rates? What alignment (toe, camber) settings are you usint? Have you done anything with the shocks? Did you rebuild the steering rack? What size tires are you using?

I'm a little confused about your video (other than your car looks beautiful!). I can't see the right rear wheel at all. The left rear seems to have a fair amount of negative camber.

Offline Europa73

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #2 on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 03:55:52 PM »
So Sorry for the typo.

I meant rear driver side wheel.

set up standard except wheels and tires.

More info to follow
also restoring 69 Elan +2 and driving a 1975 TR6

Offline LotusJoe

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #3 on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 04:10:18 PM »
Twitchy front end... my first guess is that the toe is set to toe out on the front. I typically set front toe to zero if possible with a tendency to toe in just a bit. I recall the spec is 3/16 to 1/16 toe in. I would start there, that may also cure the rear feeling loose.
Joe Irwin
3927R TC Special
(The Classic Barn Find)


Offline Clifton

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #4 on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 04:18:46 PM »
I would look at toe too. Front and rear should have a little toe in. Toe it out and it will grab any imperfection. It will turn in nice though. Good for AutoX

Offline jbcollier

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #5 on: Monday,December 03, 2018, 08:58:57 PM »
I assume you had a four wheel alignment.  What are the specs after if was done?

Toe (front and rear), camber (front and rear), castor (front), included angle (front), and thrust angle.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday,December 04, 2018, 12:27:20 AM »
First thing, the car looks great. I'm not Welsh but I like the paint job, it harks back to "racing stripes" and is a subtle way of getting a personal statement on the car. Great.

Right, handling. I'm far from an expert in this field and there are plenty more qualified than I to comment, but heck, that's never stopped me before so here goes....  ;) 

1. As others have said, geometry is key to these relatively light cars. Any toe-out at the rear is very bad news on mid engined cars in general and the rear toe in specified for the TC Europas is quite high, you can go to something like 1/4" and still be in spec.  The other thing about the rear geometry is getting it aligned to the car axis so the car won't crab sideways. For a rear handling issue that would be my first port of call.

2. As BDA said, the rear camber looks fine stationary but quite a lot of negative on the unladen wheel when cornering on that first left hander. There's a lot of movement in the camber on these cars (I geekily measured mine  ::)  ) but it generally goes positive when the wheel is unloaded, not negative.  Very difficult to tell from a video though, you can only get a sensible answer from your geo check.

3. You mention standard dampers/springs with different wheels.  A couple of things on this, firstly about tyre pressures if you've changed tyre width or profile because modern cars tend to have higher pressures with lower profiles. I'm running my 50 series tyres relatively soft by modern standards, 18-20 front, 28-30 rear, might be worth checking yours if you've just come from the tyre shop.

Secondly the car looks very low at the front going on the wheel arch clearances,  but again that's difficult to tell from video.  If you have a significantly lower front than rear it would make me think about relative roll centers, if the rear is much higher then you might be inducing rearwards instability.  No idea on numbers, that's pure guessing. With the body/chassis changes on the TC they often look nose high compared with the S1/S2 and it's difficult to get the same look on the TC using OEM parts.

4. You mentioned UJs and I'll assume that when doing that job you'll have seen the lower link bushes are in good order, not bent, etc.  The other place I'd look is the large rubber bush where the trailing arm locates in the chassis and where you do the alignment.  There's a lot of rubber in that bush and if it's perished/cracked/split then you could be inducing alignment changes under braking/acceleration or I suppose even cornering. Worth a check ?

Finally, looking at the speed on the road I don't think this is your problem but I notice there's no front spoiler on the car. The TC had one fitted to improve high speed stability (rather than a marketing exercise) so if you find the car wanders at high speed I'd look there first. 

Brian
« Last Edit: Friday,December 07, 2018, 03:06:24 AM by EuropaTC »

Offline Europa73

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,December 04, 2018, 04:44:51 AM »
Thanks everyone for your input.

I will have the measurements taken and report back.

Many thanks!

also restoring 69 Elan +2 and driving a 1975 TR6

Offline buzzer

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #8 on: Friday,December 07, 2018, 02:55:28 AM »
Another thing to consider
From a rear suspension location point of view don't forget that the gearbox/engine is a suspension mounting point for the drive shaft and the lower link. so are you engine and gearbox mounts in good condition?
Dave,

Other cars. Westfield SEiW. BMW E90 Alpina D3. BMW 325 E30 convertible and Range Rover CSK

Offline TCS4605R

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #9 on: Friday,December 07, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »
I have always wondered what toe-in changes occur in the rear suspension when the engine mounts and rear gearbox mounts flex under load.  I had my car suspension set up to Lotus factory specs and have experienced ‘trailing throttle’ oversteer - i.e. don’t back off the throttle in the middle of a turn or the rear end will pass you.  Anyone have input on this?

Tom
TCS- 4605R

Offline jbcollier

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #10 on: Friday,December 07, 2018, 09:37:17 PM »
At the limit, any mid or rear engine car will oversteer rather violently if you lift off.  Some are worse than others, none are good.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: handling issues at speed
« Reply #11 on: Saturday,December 08, 2018, 12:05:48 AM »
I have always wondered what toe-in changes occur in the rear suspension when the engine mounts and rear gearbox mounts flex under load.  I had my car suspension set up to Lotus factory specs and have experienced ‘trailing throttle’ oversteer - i.e. don’t back off the throttle in the middle of a turn or the rear end will pass you.  Anyone have input on this?
Tom
TCS- 4605R
I can't tell you what toe-in changes occur, my guess is "not much" and that if you are set up to the middle of the spec then you're not going to venture outside of the min/max range. Although the engine mounts are rubber they are pretty stiff when loaded sideways and the rear mounts (on the TC at least) are no better/worse than a normal rubber bush in the rest of the suspension.  So my guess is we have little toe change due to cornering.

Camber, if you suddenly unload the rear wheel, can change quite a lot.  As I mentioned earlier I geekily measured mine when doing the suspension. With the spring and bump stop removed and the damper taken through it's range of travel using a trolley jack (car on axle stands of course) and measured using a simple digital level I got;

Full droop :  1.1deg positive
2" up        :  0.1deg positive
3" up        :  0.5deg negative (normal ride height with 160lb springs, 205/50 tyres)
4" up        :  1.2deg negative
5" up        :  1.9deg negative (at this point the rim on a 15" wheel is level with the wheel arch, no tyre showing)
6" up        :  2.6deg negative (almost point of contact between the driveshaft & chassis)

With the bump stop in place I don't get 3" of compression.  I can't state these are 100% accurate figures on the road due to rubber bushes compressing under load and the accuracy of my digital level goes off after about 1deg away from vertical, but the comparison should be about right. So you can see how going from a heavily laden wheel to no loading at all (eg braking mid corner) is going to throw a relatively large camber change on the wheel.

Brian