Europa S2 with NG3 linkage question

[nigelc]

Hi all . I have just purchased another S2 ( so i have one to use while i continue the long term resto project ) . Its a stunning car , lots of good bits and has had an NG3 conversion.  The problem is that i literally can not get reverse gear at all . the lever does not seem to give enough rotation to move the selector to the reverse gate . The connection to the gearbox selector looks (let be polite here ) sub optimal .. but there isnt excessive play .  Have any of you successfully used the rod change on an S2 /NG3 , and if so can you share the secret of your success , or post a pic of the rear linkage and pivot assembly that i can compare to mine / copy  :-)   many thanks

[BDA]

I don't have an S2 but I doubt that makes any difference in your question. I'll apologize in advance if I bore you with details you already know. I'm also assuming that you're using Richard (at Banks) method of actuating the shift rod. He uses a large shaft (shift selector shaft) that goes across the end cover that is slightly higher on the left (when looking toward the front of the car) side and protruded much more on the left side. A bracket is attached to this shaft and the rear link is attached to this bracket. I believe there are other methods of achieving the same goals.

The first thing you need to know is reverse is to the left and back toward the engine. Getting in that gate can require a fair amount of pressure. It might be more difficult than you're used to. When you look at the linkage, remember that when you push the lever to the left, you are moving the gear selector rod to the left but when you push the lever toward the front of the car, you are pushing the rear linkage shaft towards the rear which  turns the gear selector shaft towards the rear. There needs to be a bend or an angle in the rear link. The greater that bend, the narrower your shift pattern. The "location link" (the link that goes from the top of the tranny to the rear link) should be parallel to the ground.

With the linkage disconnected at the rear, try to put it in reverse by pushing the gear selector shaft to the left and turning the shaft towards the front of the car. You may need to put a bolt in the hole of the bracket to get enough leverage and grip.

That being successful, reattach the rear link and check for binding. There should be spacers between the rod end at the end of the rear link and the bracket. This gives that rod end higher misalignment. You may need to relieve some of rod end's race to allow even greater misalignment. Another thing to look at is there should be nylon bushings at the bottom end of the gear shift lever. They look like tiny hats that fit into the hole at the botom of the lever and the shoulder bolt goes through them. If those are damaged, they should be replaced.

I've attached a couple of pictures of mine. I couldn't get a decent picture of the front of the rear link and the cross without getting under the car, but that is attached (on my car, at least) to the frame near the front left of the motor.

Let me know if that helps or if you have any other questions.

[nigelc]

Thanks for the reply BDA , and the pics . Mine is using the rods on the right side of the engine and picking up the selector from the right side of the transaxle, so doesnt use the banks conversion . I am presuming is used to work ok once upon a time as its had this set up for many years according to PO, i have messaged the PO to see if there is some knack to it that i dont yet have .  The other thing that concerns me , and may well be a factor , is that there seems to be a lot of up and down ( vertical) movement on the lever .. on my other "work in progress" car there is zero vertical movement on the lever  .

[BDA]

I was afraid that your situation might be different. You can still check that reverse can be achieved "manually" (without shift linkage), and you can ensure there is no binding. The shift lever should not go up and down. IIRC, there is a circlip that keeps it in a ball joint that is captivated by a block of aluminum (or aluminium). Not having that circlip suggests there is the possibility that the "top hat" bushings I mentioned are gone as well. Check that all the play is taken out of the linkage. That may be your problem.

[jbcollier]

Can you post photos of what you do have?

I would suggest that this is where a "BA"* would be very useful.  They can work the shifter while you watch what's happening.  Compare how far the lever moves when selecting 5th and trying to select reverse.  It could be that it is pinned incorrectly.  You might be able to re-pin it to allow more rotation on the "reverse" side.

Myself, I built my own cable shifter system and it shifts like a dream.

* "Beautiful Assistant"

[SwiftDB4]

Most NG3's have the Banks linkage on the left, but I have also found that reverse selection is a little tricky. On mine you move the lever all the way to the left and then diagonally back a little to the right. The diagonal movement rather than straight back is the key.

[StephenH]

Mine was basically the same and I went through several steps (perhaps the last went a little too far) to get to where mine is today (having both Reverse and 5th available all of the time).

My setup is all on the R/H side of the transmission, so probably like yours.
I moved the transverse stay (bolted to the top of the gearbox) that the shaft rotates around from top to bottom (or bottom to top... I forget) which helped a little (maybe it was wrong to start with.
Then it got messy and required loss of some fingers.
Starting with the gear lever, replace/rebuild the bolt and bush at the bottom of the lever so you don't lose any rotation from the start.
You could get carried away and also shorten the fore-aft lever length if you are brave while you have your hands jammed in there....
Then depending on exactly which linkage setup you have buried up in the chassis in front of the engine.....
You can start playing with the lengths of some of the components to vary the leverage ratio in each plane.
I'm not suggesting any particular lengths or measurements as I actually went a little too far and next time I feel like losing a finger or two I'll be backing out my mods a little.

If anyone is really keen I did record my changed dimensions, but not with me or in the cloud so I need my log book.

My car shifts really well 1st through to 5th, no issues at all and the lever movement is short and fast.
Selecting 5th is reliable and consistent, that is it is always available but the lockout is now effectively a bit too strong, you won't be selecting reverse by accident in my car.

[nigelc]

Thanks for the information Stephen.

so .. the lions share of the issue was it seems,  the excessive play in the vertical plane on the gear lever . Having dismantled this i found that the circlip and spacer were missing and in their place a jubilee clip that had slipped somewhat and dropped the gear lever about 2cm .  Putting the Jubilee back to its planned location means i can at least now get reverse , but its fair to say the gear change is not exactly slick .  As it happens i have a number of spare linkage parts including a spare gear lever, so i am planning to try fitting a brass sleeve type bearing in the lever to take out some of the slack there . also planned to try and reduce the length of the forward and back input at the pivot by winding the rose joint in as far as it can . was also going to try and change the upper connecting link ( i think its the earlier type with the ball joints ) with something more like the later type with the spherical joints , albeit in a different orientation . Not 100% sure this will work , but i think with a small spacer i would be able to get the same range of movement , and it should be more precise than the ball joints ?.

will report back on the success or failure , and will add the pics of the "as is" solution 

[BDA]

It's crucial to eliminate all the slop you can from the linkage.

I'm not sure I understand your plans. If you're planning on putting that brass sleeve type bearing where the bottom end of the gear shift lever and the front of the forward shift link, keep in mind that the bottom end of the shift lever needs to be tight not only with respect to the shoulder bolt there (you do have a shoulder bolt there, don't you?) but also with respect to the "fingers" on either side of the shift lever at the front end of the forward link. That is why the bushes that go there are hat shaped.

Also, if the rose joint you're going to wind to reduce the length of fore/aft movement of the shift lever, is the one at the end of the rear link and is connected to the gear selector shaft in the tranny end cover, you will only succeed in moving the shift pattern forward or aft.

As Stephen says, it should shift well if it's put together properly. Shortening the shift lever is a common mod to reduce the "size" of the shift pattern but it increases the shifting effort. I wouldn't contemplate that till you get the slop out and it shifts properly.

[nigelc]

had a lovely couple of hours removing the gear lever last night , and plenty of arm lacerations. Lever is finally out , and the pivot/swivel whatever you want to call it was in a terrible state .  the ball was very badly worn , the rubber "bearing" that it sat in equally worn , and the two square plates that sandwich it all in place also looked quite sorry .   Tonight's mission will be to try and reassemble with a new ( well old one out of my spares pile ) swivel .

Linkage turns out to be the later type with the better cross tree links and that feels fairly good . i think if i sort out the lever , and the little bit of slack in the final connection to the gearbox then we may be ok.

[nigelc]

 Hi BDA .. with ref 
"Also, if the rose joint you're going to wind to reduce the length of fore/aft movement of the shift lever, is the one at the end of the rear link and is connected to the gear selector shaft in the tranny end cover, you will only succeed in moving the shift pattern forward or aft."

no , its the one on the end of the first link , connecting to the cross tree ..  because the pivot is off centre , i think if i reduce the length between the cross tree pivot , and the end of the input link then i reduce the amount of lever travel to achieve the same range of movement at the gearbox input .  Probably not by much , but will be something to experiment with after the lever situation is addressed ( if indeed it still feels like it needs more work ) .

[Triton23]

Hi Nigel, i have just purchased an s2 with Ng3 here in france. i will take some photos of its fittment for you tomorrow.
it has a cable pull to open the gate for reverse, it is run to a pull ring by the side of the steering position,crude but works a treat.
i have a small weep on the back cover, and would like to reseal it but trying to find a gasket (even in france) is proving difficult. anyone got any ideas?