3780R Resto - Engine Restart

[4129R]

12v coil, or 9v coil via the white resister block near the coil on the chassis?

The 9v coil is boosted to 12v via the connection from the starter on starting only.

[jbcollier]

It’s ok to bypass ballast resistors to diagnos a problem.

[4129R]

It’s ok to bypass ballast resistors to diagnos a problem.

The connections on the resister block may be badly corroded and not passing the 12v required.

[DManglano]

It. Is a 12 volt system.  There is no resistor block connected to the coil.

[DManglano]

Well it certainly has been sometime since I lasted posted.  No real change as I'm still not getting a spark.  Put in new points, condenser and rotor.  Nothing.  Purchases a new distributor cap and plug wires from one of the recommended parts suppliers.  The cap is a match but the plug wires are all to long.  I think the answer is yes but thought I'd ask the group.

Can I just cur the plug wires to match the length of the originals?

Thanks,

[4129R]

Yes but make sure you don't cut them too short, and that you make good contact when screwing them into the cap or the plug leads.

[BDA]

I think at this point it might be a good time to get down to basics.

Did you get a new coil or did you check that it's functioning properly? Did you check that you have the coil hooked up properly and there is juice to your coil? Make sure you have to carbon button in the top of the cap. Did you get new plugs? Are you sure the plug wires are securely attached to the cap and the coil high tension cable is securely attached to the coil and cap? You didn't forget to put the rotor in before put the cap on the distributor, did you? Did you check the wiring diagram and make sure the correct wires are attached to the coil? I'm not trying to be pejorative but when the simple things don't work, you need to check everything and even the simplest things can be assumed to be taken care of when they aren't.

On a separate point, did you ever get your fuel pump working?

[DManglano]

Please be pejorative.  Yes to everything.  And I completely understand what you mean about getting back to basics.  To the point that I created a simple ignition system just to try to make sure the distributor is working properly.  Used the youtube video to setup an ignition system of the vehicle.  The only I wasn't sure about its the wire coming off the battery negative.  looks like he ground it to the distributor.  Distributor appears to be a Lucas off of a Triumph, otherwise it looks just like the on the car.

https://youtu.be/dIQ4IWSpMO0

[BDA]

This may be a stupid question, but when you determined that you weren't getting any spark, were you trying to start the engine with the starter (obviously, with the ignition turned on at the key. This would require an assistant.)?

Earlier, I recommended that you get an inductive "pen." Everybody has their own way of running down ignition problems but I find this a very handy and inexpensive tool. It is very handy because it allows you to see if your high tension wires are transmitting any current without taking anything apart. Because the distributor is under the carbs, it's even more handy on a Europa TC. With this "pen" you can determine if you're getting current from the coil to the distributor. If not, then there is a problem either with the coil and/or how it is connected or the connection at the distributor. If you are getting good current to the distributor, then you can check the spark plug wires.

The first part of your video is a good introduction to the stock Europa ignition. He had a ground wire on his distributor but you don't need that because the distributor is grounded to the engine and it should be grounded to the chassis.

On the front page of this forum is a link to wiring diagrams. You can use one of them to make sure your coil and condensor are wired correctly.

Here is a link to one of those "pens" I mentioned: https://smile.amazon.com/Tester-Ignition-Testing-Indicator-Diagnostic/dp/B07588RK1H/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1524451854&sr=1-4-fkmr0&keywords=Inductive+ignition+test+pen
You may be able to find them at a car parts shop.

Let us know what you find out.

[EuropaTC]

I'll bet you're getting fed up with that "Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious" and it not starting, by now I'd be calling it names and kicking tyres !

Ok, I'll be serious.  Firstly I'll second the ignition pen idea.  I've not got exactly that tool but something which operates in a similar fashion and just slips between the plug and HT lead cap so it gives an indication of the spark. In fact if I ended up buying a set of 4 so I could check all cylinders at once.

With everything being replaced  there's few things I can think of. I remember buying a distributor cap from a supplier and when it arrived the carbon brush in the centre was broken and wouldn't reach the rotor arm.  Fortunately the broken bit fell out when I unwrapped it so I didn't have to be a genius to find that one. Ebay seller not packing stuff properly....

There are internet myths about the quality of rotor arms (loose rivets ?) and electrical parts such as the condensers/CB point sets but they seem to be mainly concerned with short lives rather than dead on arrival. Worth looking with a critical eye though.

After that I come down to "me messing up".  I have incorrectly assembled the points and condenser in the past so there's been a short.  I think I got the insulating washer wrong or maybe it was broken insulation on the wire from the distributor pigtail block to the points, memory is hazy. It's years ago but I do remember chasing the fault after I'd serviced the car and it wouldn't start.

I can understand why you want to get the car started with OEM stuff and I think I'd probably want to do the same myself. But one thing that comes to mind is that Pertronix is much simpler....   

[buzzer]

On the bad rotor arm issue. yes they are about from new! and had to deal with one on another car. took us ages to sort.

[jbcollier]

Diagnosing points ignition systems for no-spark is a process of elimination.  If you start randomly replacing things, you may just make matters worse.  Get a simple 12v test light.  Digital multimeters can "smell" voltage through some pretty awful, non-functioning circuits.  The test light applies a small load which helps reveal bad connections.

First:

- ignition power at coil?  Bulb is bright.

Second:

- test light on the coil terminal going to the distributor, turn the engine over slowly (plugs out, in gear and push).  Light should alternate between dimly lit (points open) and off (points closed).

Third:

- hold coil ignition wire close to engine ground while the engine is turning over on starter.  Nice, fat, yellow spark that jumps a good sized gap of 5mm to 10mm.

Please check those three things and report back.

[DManglano]

Got my spark.  Seems I didn't have the gap breaker (point), condenser, and the thing that connects to the negative on the coil properly completing a circuit.  Once I made sure they were all connected (touching) my simple ignition system on the kitchen table worked and I was able to get a spark.  Now it's time to put the distributor back in the car and make sure I'm getting a spark to all 4 plugs.  One step closer to a restart.

[BDA]

Congratulations! 

[DManglano]

Well not only was I able to get a spark but I also put the old rotor, cap and wires back on and tested with the original coil.  Off the car ever thing worked.  Got sparks through each of the wires.  So here is where I made my rookie mistake.  When I put the battery back into the car I reversed the polarity.  Recognized my mistake before the key was and turned and then reinstalled correctly.  Now I get no power whatever.  Battery shows 12.5 volts.  Ground shows 12.5 volts.  When I check against the exhaust manifold I get 12.5 volts.  But when I turn the key nothing.  No ignition light.  No turn of the starter.  Thinking I may have blown a fuse but can’t tell.  Anything else I should check?  Would reversing the polarity do any damage even if you don’t turn the key?  So #$@!(( at myself.