Worn rear wheel bearing or something else?

[Adde]

Hi

I need some advise to diagnose a "slip/movement" in my right rear wheel.
1) I have a slip/movement in my wheel at (12) twelve o'clock if I put my jack right under the suspension (see fig 1)
2) But the slip will begone if I instead put the jack support right under the radius arm or what its named. (See fig 2)

Why is that? Where is the slip? Wheel bearing or something, else?

BR/
Adrian

[BDA]

If the movement is only at 12 o'clock and not at 3 and 9 o'clock, then I would not suspect the wheel bearings. I'm thinking that jacking on the upright gives a pivot support that jacking on the radius arm does not. I would look at the half shaft - u-joints, the attachment to the output shafts of the tranny, and their bearings or adjustment - most likely the tranny bearings.


As an aside, I would not jack on the radius arm. You won't likely damage the arm, but you could scratch paint off or create little dents. And jacking on the upright seems a bit tedious. I recommend jacking at lower suspension attachments on the tranny, the tranny itself, or the rear hoop if it's handy.

[Adde]

Hi

Thanks for the very quick response, I will make a new attempt to pinpoint the reason for the slip/movement tomorrow. (And I will then use the rear hoop as jacking point.)

BR
Adrian

[buzzer]

I  would also suspect the uj's or even pay on the output from the gearbox. I.e. Not properly shimmed gearbox output shaft. By jacking on athe radius arm you are locking out any other play that the bearings.

[EuropaTC]

I  would also suspect the uj's or even pay on the output from the gearbox. I.e. Not properly shimmed gearbox output shaft. By jacking on athe radius arm you are locking out any other play that the bearings.

As BDA says, wheel bearings normally show play at all round so my vote is another one for the gearbox shimming then UJ's.  How much movement do you have there, is it just by feel or is it noticeable ?

I suspect we've all lifted the car as you've done (I admit I've got a small bottle jack + wood block that I use under the radius arm for a quick check with brake pads, etc) but there are so many potential wear points on the rear suspension that it's probably best to go off the rear hoop and let the whole lot hang free. Otherwise you can end up masking one or other places.

Brian

[BDA]

I didn't think about the shims, partly because I don't need them, but does the tranny need to be reshimmed occasionally? I would have thought that once it's done, it's done.

[Grumblebuns]

 Recommend you have a friend look at the driveline while you rock the wheel back and forth to see if he can detect any movement. Could a broken yoke pin cause movement?

[EuropaTC]

I didn't think about the shims, partly because I don't need them, but does the tranny need to be reshimmed occasionally? I would have thought that once it's done, it's done.

In my experience, yes, I've never found wear and although I've replaced old shims with new I very much doubt the totals have changed in years.

But I'm mindful of Chris Foulds who told me early on that it was a service item which they always checked when a Europa came in for any sort of routine service. Maybe it's in case the pins break or maybe just because the consequences of not having such a simple thing right will lead to more expensive problems, I don't know because he didn't elaborate.  But he made an impression on me that's hung around to this day !

[BDA]

That's what I thought. I agree with you that they (and the pins) should be regularly checked - especially when there is slop found in the rear suspension.

[Adde]

Back from the garage where I now have...

1) disassembled the outer drive shaft (stub axle) from the wheel bearing housing and the bearings seems to be new and when I feel with my fingers is feels tight and good. (I bought the car for about 1 year ago, and has been fixing with it since then, hence no real driving). I therefor don't expect the bearing to be worn any more.

2) However, I'm a bit suspicious if there is a gap between the bearing and the axle, i.e if the axle has been too much grind. I tried to measure the axle and it then seems to be like 29.7-29.8mm instead of 30.0mm, BUT I'm not sure that my vernier caliper is very accurate, hence I don't trust it fully. (I need to get a better vernier caliper for a second opinion).
If there is a gap between the bearing and the axle, is there any way to fix it then?

3) I have also been thinking of the U-joint and if that can be the reason. How tight should these joints be, supper tight or can there be some movements? This need some more investigation. 
(If its the U-joint, would these fit? "http://www.mevspares.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-JOINTS-x2-Lotus-Europa-Driveshafts.html?main_cat=1288&child=0")

4) The gearbox feels rather solid, no major axial or radial movements as far as I can tell. However there is some rotational movements, but I assume that is normal as the gear teeth is not in contact in both rotational directions, or should they?

I appreciate all your kind and constructive feedback. This forum is great and just what I need if I ever should get my S2 68 out on the road.

Best Regard
Adrian
   

[BDA]

There should be no play in your u-joints. If you need new ones, look for these: Hardy Spicer K5 GB161 [/size](TR3, TR4, TR4A, TR250, TR6, Volvo 164) for a TC. For an S2, look for these: Hardy Spicer K5 GB150, Borg Warner 114 514, Neapco 1-300 (TR Spitfire).There will be some rotational movement due to the gear lash. There shouldn't be any axial movement at the tranny output shafts.There are products that can "make a shaft a little bit bigger in diameter" but I really can't give advice about that. Maybe someone else here can address that or a machinist should be able to help. While the upright is apart, you should make sure you have hardened spacers (or just buy a set if there is any doubt. You should also get the proper Loktite for fitting the hub to the shaft. The manual tells you but you may have to convert to the more modern product. It's NOT regular red Loktite.[/color]

[EuropaTC]

2) However, I'm a bit suspicious if there is a gap between the bearing and the axle, i.e if the axle has been too much grind. I tried to measure the axle and it then seems to be like 29.7-29.8mm instead of 30.0mm, BUT I'm not sure that my vernier caliper is very accurate, hence I don't trust it fully. (I need to get a better vernier caliper for a second opinion).
If there is a gap between the bearing and the axle, is there any way to fix it then?

3) I have also been thinking of the U-joint and if that can be the reason. How tight should these joints be, supper tight or can there be some movements? This need some more investigation. 
(If its the U-joint, would these fit? "http://www.mevspares.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-JOINTS-x2-Lotus-Europa-Driveshafts.html?main_cat=1288&child=0")

Hi Adrian,

I've no idea what the shaft measurement should be but yours doesn't sound too far away. There are numerous "bodges" for getting round minor wear which range from using a gap filling material often sold as "Bearing Fit" (similar to the stuff used on the axle splines) to building it up by metal spraying. Incidentally, that axle looks clean, have you cleaned it for the photo or was it assembled without Loctite ?  Loctite is very important there....

The U-Joints on my car are pretty solid. They rotate freely of course but in terms of movement, well I can't feel any. With the driveshaft forming the top link, I wouldn't expect any there.  Incidentally, those U-Joints seem very cheap, they may of course be perfectly ok but at a fiver apiece it would raise my suspicions as to where they were made and what the quality is like.

[Adde]

Hi

1) I have not cleaned the splines, i.e. it was assembled without any Loctite. Can that cause the gap/movement that I felt in the wheel, or is it only to prevent wear of the splines? What Loctite should I use for the splines and for the contact between the axle and bearing?

2) I also plan to change the UJ, and need therefore to disable the driveshaft from the gearbox. Is it just to pull out the shaft from the gearbox with the right amount of force or are there any tricks?

Best Regards/
Adrian



 

[BDA]

Here's the reference from the TC workshop manual (I couldn't find any reference to loctite in the S2 manual):
 
 2. BEFORE fitting the rear hubs and to ensure a positive fit between the hubs and the outboard drive shaft, ensure that both the hub and drive shaft are free from grease and dirt. Spray the mating surfaces with Locquic primer grade 'T' and allow to dry. Apply Loctlte 'High Strength Retaining Compound Type 35'.

As I said before, that type of loctite may have been superseded so you should ask for the modern equivalent.

In spite of the fact that the S2 manual doesn't mention it, if you have an S2, I would still use the loctite. I don't think not having the loctite would cause the slop you were seeing presuming the hub nut was torqued at all.

The u-joint is pinned to the output shaft. After that, it just slides off.
   

[jbcollier]

The modern equivalent is 635.