Author Topic: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly  (Read 208375 times)

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Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #555 on: Sunday,July 14, 2019, 07:32:48 AM »
Can't say for sure but I would agree with Gavin.  Wedge and crossflow engines use many of the same parts but I would use matching, and higher compression, pistons myself.

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #556 on: Sunday,July 14, 2019, 03:16:06 PM »
Okay, I asked the question, that’s what is forum is about. It proves we have the talent here . It may not be the answer Or any but I feel it’s in my best interest. Thanks ya’all’. 😀
 
 I will put in the hemi after I acquire a cam. Engine can go in with every expectation of running. The wife will be happy. I can still search for a chemise from France. 
  I have a lot of answers and pictures I’ll post later . It was a productive day.😀

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #557 on: Sunday,July 14, 2019, 04:55:07 PM »
Cam info,  RG6 grind specs 1-picture
 
Engine ID - two pictures

Head thickness- 2 pictures ( what is minimum?)

Bolt and tappet order- two pics
  I may just need a 9 1/2”

Intake and exhaust - w pics

Bearings and tappet condition - 2pics

Valve train before and after. - 3 pics

Hemi vs wedge piston 
Good progress. Thanks all!



 
« Last Edit: Sunday,July 14, 2019, 06:15:56 PM by dakazman »

Offline jbcollier

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #558 on: Sunday,July 14, 2019, 05:03:16 PM »
Always hard to judge from posted photos but a couple of the lifters/followers look pooched.

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #559 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 05:25:14 AM »
JB,
would this be the correct cam mp0371 for the crossflow? see attached pic.

And mp0314 chemise for the wedge , 821-30 fed.? I have the 77 bore 84 stroke.
Thanks in advance
Dakazman
« Last Edit: Monday,July 15, 2019, 03:26:40 PM by dakazman »

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #560 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 08:13:11 AM »
The 843 is measuring out to a 78.8/84 mm bore /stroke.  Mecaparts show an 77.8/84 and a 78 and 79/84 . All at approximately 1600 cc.
  I did some googling of my block numbers and found it to be inconclusive as to model. I read comments from an Alpine to a Fuego... the cam search begins with a call to cat cams and Alpine both may have blanks. I just need one.😀
Dakazman

Offline GavinT

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #561 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 09:37:49 AM »
G’day D’man,

I believe you said previously that the bores were 79mm which means it’s capacity, assuming the stock 84mm stroke, is 1647cc. 
On the assumption that it’s a NA 843 engine, I’d suggest the liner spigot bore in the block is 84mm and likely uses O-rings for the liner seal.

Many items on the Mecaparts site are suitable for blocks that use a 82.5mm spigot bore and paper seals. The Alpine A110 VA etc. (ignoring the 1300cc versions) and Renault 12 Gordini are all variants of the “807 family” of cross-flow engines using the 82.5mm spigot bore.

For example:
78mm bore x 84mm stroke calculates to 1605cc
77.8mm bore x 84mm stroke calculates to 1596cc
77mm bore x 84mm stroke calculates to 1565cc - MP0314

That said, they do have some A110 SX 1647cc pistons sets further down which look to offer a stratospheric compression ratio. - MP0372

BTW, I couldn’t find the MP0361 cam in your pic?
Did you mean MP0371 ?
« Last Edit: Monday,July 15, 2019, 09:50:21 AM by GavinT »

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #562 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 10:30:16 AM »
G’day Galvin, THANKS Again!
 Yes to the 371. I should have snapped a pic of it .

I rounded up since I don’t put much confidence $19.00 digital caliper. Until I went to the web site and and saw that they are very accurate to find parts ordering. This is a first time down this road for me.

Funny thing is now I have more time to build it , the hemi for speed. 😀👍👍
 I “grew a pair”, and removed the piston and rod assemblies for my 821-30. I weighed each part 12 grams off , separately but like you guys said Bring it to the machinist ... he just didn’t want to disassemble it crack or bow the pistons. Nor does he assemble anything. He just does sub assemblies. He calls himself an engine shop. Now he will do the balancing.

I still will continue building both but it seems the original is gonna get done sooner. Which is fine with me . I’ll pull it out as soon as the hemi is done.
Dakazman

Offline GavinT

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #563 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 04:05:48 PM »
Yep, digital callipers are fine for lots of things but you’ll need a couple of micrometers for assembling this engine.

OK, your guy is a machinist only; that’s fine and not unusual.
Just need to understand his perspective. He doesn’t want to take responsibility for the build with all the decisions & ramifications which flow from that. Therefore, he doesn’t want to get tangled up in potentially damaging your pistons during disassembly. That’s fine.

The 821 piston looks somewhat pitted.
Are the 843 pistons flat on top or are they slightly domed? . . . I suspect they’re flat.

I may have missed an earlier post but have you indicated a budget?
How fast do you want to go?
As you’ve already found, there are a number of ways to skin this cat.

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #564 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 06:32:16 PM »
Yes the 843 pistons are flat . And I do have a few size micrometers but not that size. If I were working I had access to all types of devices. I do miss that.

Yes they do look a little pitted, hmmmm, you think I can take out the 843 and bore out the 821 to accommodate them?
 Then order higher compression for the 843 along with the cam of course.
 
 I keep myself on a budget unless it is holding me up , there is always something else I can do with 8 vehicles. I  get reminded that it’s a hobby not a job.
 Dave

Offline GavinT

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #565 on: Monday,July 15, 2019, 09:11:05 PM »
Hi Dave,

Do you mean bore out the 821 block to accept the existing 843 liners?
I’m unclear where you’re going with this?

First thing to do is assess the current status.

Re the 843:
The crank appears to be serviceable.
Unknown wear on the pistons/liners, valves etc. & many other items.
Unknown coolant circulation.
Missing camshaft.

N.B. - Lots of caveats here because diagnosing things over the internet via strangers looking at pics needs to be taken into account also.
Suggest taking the important parts to your machinist and have him measure stuff & do an assessment. They usually don’t charge much for this and it’s vital.

Skinning the cheapest cat:
Assuming everything measures OK, reassemble pistons/liner, new bearings etc. Refurbish/renew whatever is needed, install a mild cam, Weber/Dellorto 40’s, headers and go. I’d expect this to be surprisingly decent.

Skinning the cat differently:
Using the 821 block, build a 17TS spec. engine as I mentioned earlier.
Install the larger valves, Weber/Dellorto 40’s & headers, same as before.

Skinning a bigger cat:
The 843 uses the 84mm spigot so there’s little available off the shelf in terms of just dropping in a set of pistons/liners as is usual. However, why not take advantage of that?
Have some custom 80mm pistons x 10.25 compression made and bore out the 843 liners to suit. That should provide about 1689cc’s.
Install a 17TS cam & larger valves, Weber/Dellorto 45’s & headers etc.

All these “cats” would be entirely streetable. This last option is probably the best bang for buck and perhaps cheaper than building a 17TS.

Thoughts JB?

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #566 on: Tuesday,July 16, 2019, 11:14:13 AM »
 G’Day Galvin,
   The 843 just went on standby. I will pursue the ultimate big cat for that engine . Like califkid I need to buy some engine manuals. Second , buy the correct cam and gasket set.
 I just got back from the machinist , he said not to worry about the pitting or for that matter balancing it after I told him what the difference was. His selection of verbs muttered something like, just put it together. So I went home and put all the pistons back together. So that will be cat 1 and it could be back together in two weeks  . I say that only because I have to wait for Steve to send me the alignment tools. I have all the parts to get it done.
 
   The other 821 will be your different cat , JB mentioned I should change out the exhaust anyway.
However it will be after the 843.
Dave :lotus:

Offline Certified Lotus

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #567 on: Tuesday,July 16, 2019, 01:02:34 PM »
I know nothing about these engines so I’m just reading with interest.

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #568 on: Tuesday,July 16, 2019, 01:59:14 PM »
  Thanks to Galvin and JB runningwild and others who have these eye catching, jaw dropping engines right next to the look of the twin cams and the Ford Focus black tops. I have to get pass these Renault numbers.
  I googled a 17ts and found a manual that shows the cam page perfectly with other if numbers in the ledgend. This would pick up a nice ac compressor.
Dakazman

Offline dakazman

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Re: 1970 s2 0453R Reassembly
« Reply #569 on: Wednesday,July 17, 2019, 08:58:57 AM »
Playing around with the liners today and getting the orientation correct and double checking the manual to make sure I get it right. I have a question about the hylomar sealant application location.
Is it applied while setting the liners in the block, in the area corresponding to the location I marked on the liner? Or is it smeared around the base after liner installed? Disregard that red line it’s the base of stand.
Another question,  is there a minimum thickness on the flywheel, I look d everywhere even on the diameter of it. That’s where I found the brake rotor minimum.

 Another setback is someone charged up my credit card and now I have to wait 4-day wait for my new card and purchase stuff. Just that I don’t want to us my wife’s card. All my prepay junk needs to be changed also 🤬
Dakazman

« Last Edit: Wednesday,July 17, 2019, 09:43:30 AM by dakazman »