RICHARD MANN'S UPPER LINK AND REAR SUSPENSION MODS TO 7004100119Q

[andy harwood]

Photo of Banks NG3 CV flange. 100mm, if I measured correctly.

[GavinT]

Photo of Banks NG3 CV flange. 100mm, if I measured correctly.

The Banks flange looks superb, Andy.
I couldn’t find it on Banks site though . . drat. If it's not a rude question, what's the price on these?

I wonder if it also works with 3xxx transaxles? I’m not familiar enough with the NG’s but even the 395 has longer output shafts than the 336/365 for instance.

You mentioned the 94 mm flanges so that presumably means Type 1
Here’s a link to some other VW flange differences too.

http://www.brokevw.com/flanges.html

I’m not sure if we are to assume that the 100 mm CV’s are the best and/or more common variety and therefor having better ongoing support.

[Lotus 47]

Richard,

How do you handle the inboard end on the half shaft.  How do you add a CV flange to the gearbox output shaft?

Tom
74 TCS - 4605R

Here is a bit more info on the inboard end of my conversion.

When you remove the original yoke and half shaft from the gearbox output shaft, there are a couple of shims and a special spacer fitted in there. These are not immediately obvious. Look at the work shop manual and exploded parts view to understand what's in there. The special spacer has a groove on the inboard end to accept an O-ring seal, and the outside surface is smooth to interface with the gearbox lip type oil seal. So this special spacer has two sealing functions.
The special spacer and shims are removed in my conversion.

To replace this special spacer I cut down an old R16 driveshaft. I just cutoff the end bit with the internal spline that goes into the gearbox, and throw the rest away.

The R16 CV is typically French! Absolutely nothing like what everyone else uses in the automotive world. See photo below. It is useless for my conversion.

The other photo shows the end of a R16 drive shaft. I grabbed this photo from ebay. It shows a plastic protective sleeve fitted. This helps to protect the outer surface which is required as a seal surface. The groove in the end of the shaft mates with the O-ring I mentioned earlier. I simply cutoff the splined section, then machine a flat piece of mild steel plate to fit on to the  spline. I then machine the whole lot to have ~100mm flange. I recessed the flange by a millimeter or 2 to hold/locate the CV joint, then drill 6 holes in the flange using the CV joint as a template.

The flange is <6mm thick, and I made my first ones about 25 years ago with my dad. We didn't own a MIG or TIG back then, so I preheated the flange/spline with an oxy torch, and dad welded the two with an arc (stick) welder. It worked a treat.

[Lotus 47]

These ones have drum brakes, so I will machine the drum away and be left with a drive flange.

I presume the drums are cast iron, yes?
Will that be OK for a wheel flange? . . I would have thought it'd be too brittle?

The donor rear suspension arms come from a VW beetle with IRS (independent rear suspension). These started around 1968, and used drums brakes, with those early style VW 5 bolt wheels. The wheels bolted directly into these drum brakes, so I am initially making an assumption they will fine to be turned down into a drive flange with wheel studs inserted.

Later cars used a drive flange, 4 studs and a separate drum. These drive flanges are available new and used out of the US for ~$30ea.
I read somewhere the spline length on the stub axle is shorter for the 4 stud drive flange, but until I get parts in front of my own eyes I'll just work on the parts I have on hand.

I've attached the VW exploded parts view again. Note the different drum/hub arrangements, but it only shows one stub axle. I have seen stub axles advertized in various forms with different overall lengths etc. Buyer beware!

[jbcollier]

Tripod CV joints are used in many cars.  They are very good on FWDs where short driveshafts change length dramatically as the suspension goes up and down.  More than a bit bulky for a Europa, and their ability to change length significantly is not needed but they are plenty strong enough. Virtually no stiction as the length changes unlike the driveshafts with sliding splines that would stick so much under power they would lock the suspension!

[Lotus 47]

Hey guys, not sure how crazy you want to get with the VW set ups but because of the sandrail industry there are a lot of good upgrade parts at a reasonable price.  I did a search and for example you can get a chromoly version of the Beetle stub axle made to mate up with the stronger VW Bus CV for about $100 canadian plus shipping.

https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C26-525-101


The CVs are also reasonably priced, German made bus CVs are about $90 a piece (4 required) or good quality full half shafts with a CV at each end are $150-$170, new. 

Richard I am really interested to see how the VW stuff works out as I think this is a good quality reasonable priced conversion to make a twin link rear suspension and convert to the more modern CV axle set up.  Your set up you have engineered is really amazing and I love how simple it is.
Ross

I took these screen shots the other day to show there is plenty of stuff out there.

You can rack up some dollars pretty quickly if you buy it all new.
I bought two trailing arms for AUS$250. Not cheap but in theory they have everything I need. Stubaxles, spacers, drive flange and retaining nut.
I would like to develop a drop in replacement for the original Hillman Imp stub axles, so eventually I'll need to buy a couple of bolt on yokes, and machine the CV flange down to accept them. I may need to cut the flange right off and weld on a U/J yoke. I'll have to get out the trusty vernier, ruler and pen/paper and do some basic layouts.

[andy harwood]

"The Banks flange looks superb, Andy.
I couldn’t find it on Banks site though . . drat. If it's not a rude question, what's the price on these?"

I guess the CV flanges are not on the web site, as Richard mentioned them to me. The photo is what he sent to me via email.

Banks price at the time, 296 BP. As Richard said - "Oh, but they are nice".

And so they are!

[andy harwood]

" Virtually no stiction as the length changes unlike the driveshafts with sliding splines that would stick so much under power they would lock the suspension"
"Lastly these cars all use 6mm roll pins, and the Europa uses 7mm roll pins with another smaller one inside.
I haven't use roll pins for about 20 years. I use a 7mm bolt. "

John & Richard-
In reading about the different conversions to a twin link suspension, one thing common was not using a pin (or bolt - I had wondered about the viability of this) on the transaxle yoke/flange. This allowed the yoke to move a bit on the output shaft as the suspension moved up & down. Now, I'm wondering if I'm wrong on just being able to remove the roll pin from the CV flange and grease the output shaft for movement.
Could y'all chime in with some insight?
Thanking you in advance.

[BDA]

Doesn't the CV joint provide plunge? Mine does. I pin mine to the output shaft anyway.

[jbcollier]

You need to remove the pins if you are using the original, fixed-length half shafts.  Rzeppa CV joints (typical VW joint) accommodate some change in length, certainly more than enough for the very long arm Europa rear suspension.

[andy harwood]

Thanks for the input.
From looking at exploded views of VW axles, and reading a bit, I thought that was the case. But - don't have any practical experience.

[andy harwood]

Links for VW stuff -
EMPI, lists about every thing, with some specs.
http://vwcatalog.empius.com/default.html
The SAMBA VW forum, w/ classifieds
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/

[TCS4605R]

Richard,

Do you pin the 100 mm inboard splined CV hub to the gearbox output shaft - same way as the stock U-joint inboard shaft pins to the gearbox output shaft?

Tom
74TCS - 4605R

[jbcollier]

Yes, you would pin the CV joint flange to the output shafts.

[Lotus 47]

Yes, you would pin the CV joint flange to the output shafts.

John is correct. the inboard CV flange and spline is pinned to the output shaft of the gearbox.

A decent CV joint will have the ability to extend/compress by 10mm, so shafts with 2 CV joints will be 40mm shorter when fully compressed compared to fully extended. There is a strong likelihood the inner flange could slip out of the gearbox by 10+mm, so oil will piss out (Australian technical term).

My upper link suspension was installed to over come rapid U/J wear and the possibility of the half shaft winding up and breaking. They are thin and small in diameter, so prone to twist failure.

I am biased but if you are going to play around with the rear end, change the stub axles, install CV joints and fit an upper link. Just do it (American marketing term).

I took a few more photos of the typical R16 CV joints I've cut up in the past. Yet another version of a constant velocity joint that I wouldn't bother with.