Author Topic: Restoration of 2358R  (Read 185197 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #165 on: Sunday,January 01, 2017, 02:20:42 PM »
i am removing the evaborative loss control system which includes the fuel catch canister (the long cylinder above the twin cam valve cover). That means I will be grinding off the brackets welded onto the cross bar in the engine bay that holds the cylinder.

Figured before I grind off perfectly good brackets on the cross bar I should ask If someone has a cross bar (in very good condition) that has bad brackets that wants to trade me for mine ?

I also have the catch can available (in excelllent condition) for sale.

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #166 on: Monday,January 02, 2017, 05:08:51 PM »
I needed to dismantle a few more chassis parts in order to bring everything to the professional media blaster.  Spent the afternoon removing the rear bearing housings from the half shafts and rear radius arms. Of course I didn't have a long enough three arm puller so a quick trip to the local Harbor Freight store to snag an 8 inch puller (just long enough).  I had tried to use my hydraulic press, but the radius arm and axle/half shaft kept getting in the way along with me working alone and not being able to hold everything in place. The puller worked like a charm.

A couple of the threaded holes in the hub are stripped and one of the bolts broke off inside the casting so I have some work to do on these.  Plus I'm replacing all the bearings. 

Big shout out to Serge and his Europa restoration videos! I watch a few of them last night (Accidentally found out about them by hitting the wrong category of this web site and his video link appeared).  The video of him using helicoil inserts made up my mind to do this to mine. 

Media blasted my hubs and was startled when the left one showed was I thought was a huge crack along the hub.  After pulling it out of the cabinet and looking at it closely in the light I realized it was just an overlap of casting from the mold......not a crack (whew!).

Removed the transaxle mounting bracket from the transaxle.

I'm now ready to transport all the chassis parts to the professional large capacity media blasting service this coming weekend and then take everything to the powder coater.  Luckily they are very close to each other and only 20 minutes from my house so not a big deal in getting it all done over the next week or two.


Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,996
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #167 on: Monday,January 02, 2017, 05:44:27 PM »
Are you sure that the "overlap" isn't a cold shut? I believe someone on this forum had that problem and the bearing carrier (upright) broke. I might try to carefully grind out the "overlap" and if the line doesn't go away, I would either look to repair it (if welding wrought aluminum is a good plan) or get another. If you can't determine if it is a cold shut, maybe a machinist or professor at a mechanical engineering school could help you decide. They are still available and one guy - maybe the guy whose upright broke - had a new one cast. I don't know the particulars but maybe he has or can recreate the mold or a mold can be taken from your upright if it is a goner.

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #168 on: Monday,January 02, 2017, 06:16:15 PM »
BDA, had to look up "cold shut" and realized it was what I had described, a cold overlap. I did a fairly close inspection of the entire bearing carrier from all sides and couldn't determine any issues. I'll show it to my friend Drew who is very knowledgeable about these things. I also work with a guy who has a PHD in metallurgy so I'll let him look at. Based upon their input I might take a grinder to it......

Thanks for your comment. Made me pay more attention!

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,996
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #169 on: Monday,January 02, 2017, 08:32:58 PM »
Sorry I didn't define "cold shut" for you. I wouldn't have thought that that wouldn't be problem in a production vehicle. One would have thought QC would have caught it, but then at the time, Lotus wasn't known for their quality control - rather they were known for their lack of quality control.

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #170 on: Monday,January 02, 2017, 10:56:32 PM »
BDA, had to look up "cold shut" and realized it was what I had described, a cold overlap. I did a fairly close inspection of the entire bearing carrier from all sides and couldn't determine any issues. I'll show it to my friend Drew who is very knowledgeable about these things. I also work with a guy who has a PHD in metallurgy so I'll let him look at. Based upon their input I might take a grinder to it......

Thanks for your comment. Made me pay more attention!
Personally I'd take a light surface grind to see if it disappeared in a 0.010" grind but another simple alternative for DIY is dye penetrant testing. Basically you clean the surface with solvent, spray on a thin dye and leave for a 10-20 minutes. Opinions on time vary but longer is generally safer than shorter because the dye soaks into any cracks. Re-clean the surface with the solvent until no dye remains and spray a white "developer" which is very much like talc which causes any remaining dye to seep out as obvious red marks.

It's not as accurate as other NDT methods but used to be industry standard for simple inspection on non-magnetic metals and if done properly will at least draw your attention to the area. I have no idea how much the kits cost these days (cleaner/dye/developer aerosols) but they can't be that much. (and you get to play at being hi-tech  ;)  )

Brian

Offline Roger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Aug 2012
  • Location: Richmond, Texas
  • Posts: 400
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #171 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 04:26:57 AM »
Interesting that you're having the chassis powder coated.
There have been several instances to my knowledge of powder coating developing cracks and letting moisture in, resulting in a rusted chassis under what looks perfect.
Has powder coating improved a lot?
I'd prefer a flexible paint, indeed I painted mine when I rebuilt it, but I do wonder.

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #172 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 05:30:13 AM »
EuropaTC, might end up doing a die test. Will see what my resident experts say.

Roger, there are lots of negative comments on many car web sites regarding using powder coating on a chassis. I have my restored '64 Elan S1 chassis powder coated and it is fine. Of course these are primarily "fair weather" cars and typically won't see much wet weather or road salt. The biggest consideration for me is that powder coating can adhere to places a brush or spray paint can't get to. Despite the detractors, I'm sticking with powder coating.

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #173 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 11:34:03 AM »
Spoke with my friend who has a PHD in metallurgy and showed him the bearing carrier. First thing he asked was if this casting was from a sand mold. Then he asked about the orientation of the upright and what was connected to it along with the type of stress and loads on it.

We had a conversation about how aluminum stresses and what it looks like. He was very confident that the overlay was not an issue and because there was no evidence of any cracks what so ever I should not be worried about the integrity of the upright.

When I mentioned the suggestion of grinding the overlap to determine if there was cracking below it he didn't think that was worth my time. You would see the crack in other places, not just below the overlay.

I will still show the piece to my other friend who restores high end pre-war racing cars and see what he thinks.

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,996
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #174 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 12:37:15 PM »
Your metallurgist friend seems like the kind of expert you'd want and he certainly has the credentials you'd want and I don't, but I'm a little surprised that he would ask if the upright is sand cast.

Here is where I readily admit that my mechanical engineering degree was awarded in 1980 and I only spent a few years as an engineer and none in metallurgy or similar field.  I would think the three ways that part was likely be made is from a forging, a sand casting, or a die casting. Unless there is machining or similar operations (and there aren't in this case), die castings have a fine line where the mold pieces join and are very smooth, forgings usually have a rather broad joint mark. Sand castings and forgings generally have a rougher finish, sand castings may or may not have a line from mold joints and if it does, they are generally thin. It's really a bit more complicated than that, but that is generally how I can tell between the manufacturing processes for pieces of that era. Given that, it is obvious to me that the uprights are sand cast and in my experience when I was racing (back in the dark ages), that seemed to be the most common method of making parts like that. I would have thought he would have figured that out for himself.

All I saw was a picture and he saw the part so I'm not trying to say he's wrong, but if it is a cold shut, that would mean that there would be a "crack" between two parts of the upright. Basically, molten aluminum solidified on top of aluminum that had cooled enough so that there was not a continuous flow of aluminum. From your description of it as an "overlap", there is at least superficial evidence of a cold shut. I'm a bit surprised that he's not more curious about what is below that "overlap."

All this is a long way of saying your friend may be of a more theoretical stripe and possibly more concerned with crystal structure, etc. This is not meant to be a criticism of him in the least. PhDs can sometimes be very immersed in the theoretical at the expense of more practical or real life knowledge. On the other hand, he could be right on the money. Like I said, he actually saw the part, he has much more experience with materials, and for all I know, he has substantial real-world practical experience. I'm just a guy who knows a little about a few things (and some of what I actually know may be correct!) and am taking this opportunity to tell you everything I know about a few of them (and I can do that in a few paragraphs! :) ).  I think another opinion or two is called for. It would make for a really bad day if your upright broke while you were in a fast sweeper in a country road in the woods! I know I would feel a lot better if you followed Brian's advice above.

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #175 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 01:59:47 PM »
Basically, molten aluminum solidified on top of aluminum that had cooled enough so that there was not a continuous flow of aluminum. From your description of it as an "overlap", there is at least superficial evidence of a cold shut. I'm a bit surprised that he's not more curious about what is below that "overlap."

Well, for someone who says he doesn't know that much about casting, I'd say your description is pretty much spot on.

/non-lotus ramble - fast forward here.....    ;)

My first job after university was in a foundry where we cast ships propellers in sand/cement molds. One thing we were very concerned about was metal and mold temperatures plus the feed rate of molten metal when casting. If you had something go wrong, like unequal feeding or a ladle delayed, etc, then one danger was getting defects exactly as you describe, usually at the thinner tips of the blades where the chilling effect was greatest.

Normally it would only be present at the surface because the bulk of molten metal arriving "late" would re-melt the core, so it was usually structurally ok because of design safety factors.  But there would always be the possibility of fatigue from a surface defect, plus of course it didn't look good to a customer so invariably we'd weld the casting if it didn't polish out.

Later  I had a passing interest/responsibility in PV Inspection. If an inspector got me involved with "is this a crack or just a surface defect ?" I'd invariably get it removed. Firstly because if my guess at surface defect was wrong it was backside covering and I might save myself future embarrassment.  Secondly it was far easier to explain to any insurance/external authority that "it's gone, it's not there to worry about any more" rather than go into great depth to academically prove something that two minutes with a grinder/welder would resolve.....   yep, dead lazy, I hated writing reports....   :)
//end of ramble

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #176 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 05:04:46 PM »
Well guys, I'm not an engineer (but my father was a mechanical design engineer for very large scale close tolerance custom designed mechanical equipment.He would take me to the mills to show me the molten iron pours into molds. He taught me the basics) so I can't dispute your well written commentary. I will say my friend was asking me to confirm it was a sand casting (although I suspect he knew it right away).

More to the point (and confirming BDA's comment) my friend held the upright in his hands, closely looked at the overlap and then inspected the areas around the overlap.

Appreciate your enthusiasm and effort to solve problems remotely, but as you can expect some things get lost in translation. Which is my fault as I did not provide a detailed review of all the comments my friend made on castings and what happens when they get stressed and how to determine if there is a flaw.

Never the less, I always learn something from everyone's view point and expertise. I just might take a grinder to the overlap.........

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,996
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #177 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 05:05:21 PM »
Quote
Well, for someone who says he doesn't know that much about casting, I'd say your description is pretty much spot on.

And the parts I don't know are the parts that you know. I know that cold shuts are bad, but I don't know much beyond that.

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,996
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #178 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 05:21:45 PM »
Quote
Appreciate your enthusiasm and effort to solve problems remotely, but as you can expect some things get lost in translation. Which is my fault as I did not provide a detailed review of all the comments my friend made on castings and what happens when they get stressed and how to determine if there is a flaw. 

If there is  fault to be assigned, it's not yours. We can only convey so much in a post. Replying from the other side of your computer can be dangerous in many ways. I guess I'm operating out of the same abundance of caution that Brian described and at least a part of that caution comes from my very imperfect knowledge of the situation in particular and casting in general.

As long as your safe, I'm happy!

Offline Certified Lotus

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2016
  • Location: Princeton, NJ
  • Posts: 1,690
Re: Restoration of 2358R
« Reply #179 on: Tuesday,January 03, 2017, 05:41:28 PM »
Another thought. We are using the term "cold shut" when that maybe an incorrect assumption. It could be a defect in the mold for the casting and it has a slight aberration ?  Anything is possible.....