Author Topic: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 40 DCOE Head  (Read 18853 times)

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Offline kiwiokie

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #30 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 04:11:58 PM »

Two options for a manifold. Steel plates connected by appropriate tubes, or get a specialist to cast one in aluminium. I prefer the aluminium route, as it will be easier to match up the ports and polish the insides, but it could be expensive, even for the 7 manifolds I need.

Alex in Norfolk.

Alex, just curious why you are building up 7 heads/manifolds?  Do you have 7 Europa's or are they spares for a race car?  Cheers, John

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #31 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 04:25:51 PM »

Two options for a manifold. Steel plates connected by appropriate tubes, or get a specialist to cast one in aluminium. I prefer the aluminium route, as it will be easier to match up the ports and polish the insides, but it could be expensive, even for the 7 manifolds I need.

Alex in Norfolk.

Alex, just curious why you are building up 7 heads/manifolds?  Do you have 7 Europa's or are they spares for a race car?  Cheers, John

I  actually do have 7 Europas which all had Zenith Stromberg heads. 2520R, 3089R, 3755R, 4129R, 4259R, 4483R and 4688R.

6 of them were basket cases requiring complete renovation with 3089R being very rusty and 4688R having a bad front end shunt, with a new chassis, and really awful paintwork. All 7 will be converted to RHD, and if I can find the right recipe, 45DCOE Webers. 

Alex in Norfolk.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #32 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 09:59:52 PM »
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/cl-cmd300-mill-drill/

It seems to be able to do what I want.

It can only handle small items, but I have found a way of getting to where I want to cut, and it is very accurate.

Alex in Norfolk.

Thanks for the info and link Alex.

If you can do a cylinder head on that then I can't think of anything else I would ever do that's larger. I'm quite impressed, the last time I got as far as actually looking at prices they were more much expensive than that. Could be a winter project there.....

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #33 on: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 11:42:48 PM »
I hope these are just small enough in file size.
« Last Edit: Sunday,September 18, 2016, 11:55:16 PM by 4129R »

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #34 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 12:44:32 AM »
It's amazing what you can do when you put your mind to it. From the Machine Mart link you'd never imagine you could do something so complex on that miller, oh, I can see where the next share dividends are going !

It looks as if there's still a fair bit of machining to do at the back of the head, I wonder if that's a solid lump ?

Great pictures and invaluable for anyone else considering the same route. I've never seen anyone DIY this sort of thing before, well done mate !

Offline BDA

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #35 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 05:37:56 AM »
The pictures came out great! It looks like you're on your way! Good luck and keep those pictures coming!

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #36 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 06:11:29 AM »
I have found someone who will cast the manifolds.

It is nowhere near as expensive as I thought.

If anyone else is thinking of going down this path, please let me know so we can see the numbers involved.

They say drilling into a waterway is no problem, just Loctite the studs in place.

I am thinking that the rubber O ring and metal sandwich plates are the best way of sealing the manifold to the head.

I am now waiting for a longer milling cutter/reamer to arrive from Hong Kong so I can proceed with flattening 1 & 2 ports.

Alex in Norfolk.

Offline andy harwood

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #37 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 06:20:53 AM »
Alex,
Quite the project!
Thanks for posting photos of the head secured to the mill table.
Work holding has taken a new meaning to me since I sent a piece of 2" stainless pipe zinging across the shop.
Are you using a end mill or roughing mill in the Jacobs chuck?
Andyh

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #38 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 06:26:07 AM »
It is an end mill but it cuts through the cast ally sideways about 8-10mm at a time.

I hope the newly ordered 160mm long cutter from Hong Hong will be able to get to the lower bits.

Alex in Norfolk.


Offline buzzer

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #39 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 07:59:55 AM »
Alex,

Good work so far, impressive. Be interested how you get on with the aluminium cast inlet manifold if you say it is not too expensive.

Dave
Dave,

Other cars. Westfield SEiW. BMW E90 Alpina D3. BMW 325 E30 convertible and Range Rover CSK

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #40 on: Monday,September 19, 2016, 08:05:29 AM »
I have found someone who will cast the manifolds.

It is nowhere near as expensive as I thought.

If anyone else is thinking of going down this path, please let me know so we can see the numbers involved.

They say drilling into a waterway is no problem, just Loctite the studs in place.

I am thinking that the rubber O ring and metal sandwich plates are the best way of sealing the manifold to the head.

I am now waiting for a longer milling cutter/reamer to arrive from Hong Kong so I can proceed with flattening 1 & 2 ports.

Alex in Norfolk.

Alex, I'll be talking to my machinist later on this week to get his thoughts on the conversion so consider me tentatively interested in possibly two sets of manifolds (for two heads).



Offline Roger

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday,September 20, 2016, 09:37:30 AM »
Alex, you're wrong about Elans. Almost all in UK are Weber heads. Only a short production of the S4 were Stromberg, then Weber and later Dell'Orto on Sprints and plus 2s.

Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday,September 28, 2016, 01:02:54 PM »
It seems it is best to carve off as much of the cast alloy inlet manifold as possible with a disc before using a milling machine.

The cutter is only 85mm long and cannot reach the lower bits of 3 & 4 cylinders.

I bought a long reamer but that just shakes a lot, works loose in the chuck, and falls out regularly.

I go in search of a 160mm long end cutter tomorrow at a specialist milling supply shop.

When I get the cutter on to the cast ally, you have to nibble off a small bit at a time (1.0mm -1.5mm) or the ally overheats at wraps itself around and sticks to the cutter shaft, needing a hammer and screwdriver to bash off before continuing.   

The R&D continues. When I have the right length cutting bit, and the right cutting method, it should be much easier.

Now on to the manifold replacement scenario.

Turbosport of  Bedfordshire quoted me £1,500 + VAT to make up the mould, and £30 + VAT for each casting, and £30 + VAT to machine each casting (faces flat, 16 holes drilled and 8 tapped).

A cast ally inlet manifold is one route to follow. The other way is ally plate and tube, carefully cut and welded. I now have the plate (3/8" x 4", they measure it in inches still) , I have the tube 50mm ext diameter with a 38mm hole.

Now the technical bit.

In 1970, I helped for a very short while, to prepare a Mini Cooper S for the 1970 RAC International Rally. It had an 8 port crossflow head with 4 Amal carbs, which cost an arm and a leg. Therefore I must assume that 4 separate inlet ports are potentially better than 2 siamesed inlet ports. The airflow must be much better.

Looking at it from a geometrical point of view, the 175 Strombergs have a cross sectional area of pi times (1.75 x 25.4/2) squared, or pi times 494.17 sq mm

The Webers have a cross sectional area of either pi times 36/2 x 36/2 for 36 mm chokes or pi times 38/2 x 38/2 for 38mm chokes, both times two, as there are two chokes per 45DCOE. That equates to 648 pi  or 722 pi.   

So 494.17 pi for Z/S versus 648 pi for 36s or 722 pi for 38s.

It seems apart from the Y branch on the siamesed inlet ports, the twin 45DCOEs potentially let in a lot more air than the twin Z/Strombergs.

Are you with my logic so far, and do you agree with this logic?

Second question:-

If the chokes in the 45DCOE are 38s (for maximum airflow for say a 145bhp potential power level), or 36s (for a 125 bhp potential power level), what diameter should the inlet tubes be for maximum airflow?

I have bought 38mm ally tubes on the basis that if the air has been restricted to a 38mm hole in the 45DCOE choke, what is the point of a bigger tube? Plus the valve seats in the combustion chamber look like 34mm.

Is the 36mm or 38mm choke tube in the 45DCOE deliberately smaller to allow a pressure drop when it increases to 45mm as it exits the carb, to allow the fuel to get sucked into the inlet airflow?

A manifold made from plate and tube welded together is alreadt very smooth all over, so minimal machining and minimal gas flowing required.

Constructive discussion please.

Alex in Norfolk.



Offline 4129R

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #43 on: Wednesday,September 28, 2016, 01:38:49 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_head_porting

Gas flowing looks like a job for the experienced.

Alex in Norfolk.

Offline jbcollier

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Re: Converting a Zenith/Stromberg Head to a Twin 45DCOE Head
« Reply #44 on: Wednesday,September 28, 2016, 02:02:59 PM »
"Is the 36mm or 38mm choke tube in the 45DCOE deliberately smaller to allow a pressure drop when it increases to 45mm as it exits the carb, to allow the fuel to get sucked into the inlet airflow?"

Yes, that's it exactly.  Air flow increases as the passage narrows at the venturi.  This creates a pressure drop which is used to draw fuel in.

A 45DCOE bolts to a manifold with 45mm wide ports.  The ports taper down to x% where they join the head, also at x% and further taper to valve seat width.  And, yes, there is a crap load of science and experimentation in shaping ports.

As to the Webers flowing more air, direct comparisons can be misleading.  For instance the Weber also has auxiliary venturis in there as well while the Stroms do not.  Not arguing in favour of the Stroms mind, they have running issues that arise from the use of siamese ports.