Author Topic: What a reasonable price  (Read 2313 times)

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Offline Bart

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What a reasonable price
« on: Friday,August 12, 2016, 12:25:59 PM »
 :WTF:

Hi, I have a question from a newbie to you experts out there and its this:-

I've been actively trying to get hold of a Series 2 twin cam in a condition that needs work (mechanical and body) but not a total basket case I don't mind it having been sat for a long while & not pretty and I'm on a budget (aren't we all). There has been one on EBay that listed twice, It was a non runner, partially disassembled but other wise looked OK. When it listed first it went to 9.6 and the buyer backed out (got bidder fever I guess), on the second listing it was listed with a BIN of 9K and it did not get any offers - including from me. I thought 9K was too high.

So - my question is :- am I kidding myself that I can get a Europa in the condition mentioned for Circa 8K? I will keep looking but would be nice to know if I am trying to find Hens teeth.

Thanks,

Jon.



Offline BDA

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #1 on: Friday,August 12, 2016, 01:49:32 PM »
First, I assume you mean an S2 OR a TC - the S2 had the Renault engine and the TC had, well, the Twin Cam engine.  :)

My initial thought was that you should be able to get something like you describe for about $7K or $8K, but then it all depends on the condition and how much work you would need to put into it and it appears that the ones on fleabay are a bit more put together than you're looking for. A quick look at the three that are listed gives me the impression they are reasonably priced. Of course the yellow S2 that had the fins 'reprofiled' would not be for everyone.

Europa prices have been inching up in the last fifteen years or so. It used to be that you could get a very nice nearly original TC driver for $7500 (sorry, I don't keep up with S2 prices as closely, but I would expect there to be maybe a 15% discount to a comparable TC), but they are more likely going for more towards $20000 now. There is a very nice black TC with gold stripes that's at $14.7K now. I would hope it gets at least $17 - $18K.

You might want to look on bringatrailer.com. There are several listed there but I know some of them are stale. It probably pays to watch it pretty closely.

Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

 :lotus:

Offline Clifton

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #2 on: Friday,August 12, 2016, 03:40:18 PM »
Another place to look is Craigslist if you aren't already. I used Adhunter to search a few states and found one in the state next door.

Offline EuropaTC

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #3 on: Friday,August 12, 2016, 10:50:57 PM »
Hi Jon,

I'm in the UK and the market over here is different, hence I can't sensibly comment on the prices over there but "what is reasonable ?"

Over here people see the Lotus badge and immediately add a couple of zeroes to the asking price. It seems to me that any other fibreglass car from the 60s, TVR, Marcos, Piper, etc, would be much cheaper despite having an even greater rarity value.  Some guys on this forum have been lucky with their finds, but IMO if something is advertised widely then it will have a lot of haggle factor in the price.

I haven't bought a project in a while but my approach is like this;

Walk round the car and make a list of what's scrap and what can be re-used. On most serious restorations that's the bodyshell, glass and possibly the chassis. If you're lucky the main suspension components such as arms, links, hub carriers, etc will be ok once cleaned.

Personally unless there's obvious new parts I budget for complete suspension rebuild, dampers, springs, bushes and bearings. Brakes complete overhaul, discs, lines, flexibles. Engines might be ok for a few years whilst you do the rest but if the car is sitting outside then at least know how much money is involved in making the engine/carburettor/gearbox workable.

Then total up how much it will cost you. Ignore your own time but factor in anything that you are forced to have done for you, for example I do my own bodywork so I ignore that but if you need to buy a respray then in the UK you're looking at a lot of cash.

You'll get a number you really don't like and certainly don't want to share with your wife/girlfriend/mother/father.   

I then take that number away from the price of a concours, fully restored example at the high end of the market. Usually the end result is negative and these days you're unlikely to break even or make a profit, but at least you know how much you should be paying.....

Brian


Offline 4129R

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #4 on: Saturday,August 13, 2016, 04:54:10 AM »
I have bought 7 Federal spec TCS on eBay.com over 3 years, and IMHO total wrecks are worth $4,500 and complete non-running cars in need of nut and bolt rebuilds are worth $7,000 tops. Runners in need of substantial work $10,000 tops.

Keep looking on eBay.com. and they will come up.

I will not be buying any more, as I have sufficient to keep me busy for 2-3 years now.   

Alex in Norfolk.

Offline Bart

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Re: What's a reasonable price
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,August 13, 2016, 09:31:22 AM »
Well, it seems that 8K is a reasonable price after all :)

 :pirate:

 :trophy:

Hi everyone, I contacted the seller of the Europa that I mentioned in my earlier post ( it's a 1974 TC Special) and the seller agreed to re-list with a BIN of $8K. So, yes, finally after more than 40 years of admiring this car - I own one :)

I am so looking forward to spending time on this car with my son and getting it back on the road again. I know for sure that once this project starts in earnest that I will be trawling this site for words of wisdom on how to do this and that, so thanks in advance for that.

Thanks to all that replied to my post. Once I have the car in my garage I will post some pictures and commentary on what it's really like - I hope more good than bad and ugly!

Jon

Offline 4129R

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #6 on: Saturday,August 13, 2016, 09:59:28 AM »
73114173R was built in Nov 1973, and sold around the end of 1973 maybe Jan 1974.

$8,000 is a fair price providing the engine doesn't need rebuilding.

Most of the other parts are cheap to buy and readily available. Check the chassis for rust, and keep your fingers crossed that the chassis doesn't need replacing.

Otherwise, you have done OK. Cheap ones don't come up for sale often, so you just have to offer more than competitors who want to buy one.

Alex in Norfolk. 

Offline BDA

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #7 on: Saturday,August 13, 2016, 11:05:34 AM »
That's great news, Jon! Congratulations!! I can't wait for your pictures!

Offline Bainford

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #8 on: Monday,August 15, 2016, 08:21:10 AM »
Congratulations on your Europa purchase. Good luck with the project. I hope you and your son have many enjoyable hours getting back right. Looking forward to photos. Cheers  :beerchug:
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

Trevor

Offline Bart

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Update on '74 TCS
« Reply #9 on: Monday,August 22, 2016, 12:39:16 PM »

Hi to all,

So this past Saturday I hooked up the uhaul and hit the road on a 1200 mile road trip to Indiana and back to collect the '74 TCS that I purchased. Arriving. I was a little nervous of what I would find (as it was sight unseen at the purchase) and how I was going to load it onto the trailer possibly alone, I had allsorts of Heath Robinson ideas how I would do it as the car doesn't run.

Turns out 2 guys pushing and a lady steering (the seller and her husband) is all that's needed and moves one of these easily up the uHaul ramps. So with the paperwork done, I turned around and drove home who knew how much fun 74 East could be? On Sunday morning I rolled it off the uhaul into the garage, with the aid of a block and tackle and a shove.

So, what did I get for my money? Petty much what I expected is what it is:-  The body is in good shape overall although evidently a respray was done from a purple color to the current black some time ago and is desperate need of a decent amount of work and new and paint new chrome. The chassis from what I can see so far is in good shape relatively rust free and straight. The engine is....well engine like - almost - The carbs are off and were in a "bucket" of miscellaneous rusty crap, no exhaust manifold, no exhaust system, no alternator, the pulley is missing, no distributor, coil & wires long gone, cross over pipes and everything that usually bolts on is missing.  Basically a block, head, tranny and intake manifold is all that is in there  - Hmmmm. The suspension is totally knackered, and has been partially disassembled - did I mention the rear wheels are splayed out seemingly because the tie rods are removed? (See note above about bucket of rusty crap). Brakes are shot and the wheels are round - sort of. The inside is a mess of old carpet and that oh so lovely mildew smell, assorted wires hanging from under the dash and a nice liberal covering of grime,  but hey! what's that? the battery looks new!

OK, so I am disappointed? well the answer is no-ish. I wanted a project car (check), I wanted a TC (check), I wanted Black one (check...ahem...check-ish). I had already planned to replace the brakes, suspension, ignition system, exhaust, the interior and I had already talked to Sandy at Quicksilver Race engines about a total rebuild (Anyone have a recommendation on a builder?) and knew I wanted a body off refurbishment of the chassis etc. I have to do all I thought plus a bit more to boot. So, disappointed? No not really, but would have been nice to be pleasantly surprised. Described in the Advertisement as "Most parts are there" reminds me a bit of President Clinton's question about what the definition of "is" is. Most of the parts are there-ish.

This spring I will roll my Europa into the garage at home and then the fun will start, Between then and now I am trying to read all I can read about the work involved and the order of battle with due regard to Moltke (first contact with the enemy etc). Its a little overwhelming to be honest, but, I am a methodical practical guy so, all that's needed is time, patience, money and a large supply of good humor and a little help from my friends and of course all of you!

I'll keep you posted.


Jon.




Offline BDA

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #10 on: Monday,August 22, 2016, 02:14:08 PM »
That certainly should keep you off the streets for a while! I'm glad you're going to bring it back to its former glory - or beyond!

You'll notice a few things when you start work. First, Europas are simple cars. Depending on how much the PO did to the wiring and how badly, you should find it a pretty easy car to work on (start yoga classes now so you can achieve the Lotus position!). Second, in spite of the small production run, parts are not that difficult to find - especially if you're not worried about staying original. Headers, distributors, suspension bits, etc. are easy to find. As for your cross over pipes, I would only worry about them if you are determined to keep it original. When I got my car new at the Lotus Distributor, they took them off and blocked the holes without asking and for no charge! Third, there are some nice kits you can buy for such things as adjustable front suspension, vented front disc brakes, rear disc brakes, twin link rear suspension, alternate alternators, alternate transaxles, shocks, springs, and much more. Richar at Banks in England provides most of those kits and more plus he probably knows more about Europas than any man alive so he's somebody you might want to get acquainted with.

There are some great guys on this forum who are willing to help you if you need it. I would also recommend that you join the lotuseuropa yahoo group. There are good guys there, too.

You should check out the list of suppliers: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=192.0
as well as this list of websites: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=1389.0 (you'll notice some duplication).

I only know Quicksilver by reputation and I would have not qualms sending my TC motor there. Maybe others have other suggestions.

Good luck and keep us informed about your progress, and if you have any questions.

Offline 4129R

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #11 on: Monday,August 22, 2016, 03:15:43 PM »
Sounds just like 3 that I bought.

I picked up my latest "project car" 4483R from Felixstowe docks on Friday.

It was supposed to have 4 new tyres. 3 were flat with holes in. No rear luggage box, no spare wheel, and generally in need of lots of work, a re-trim, and a respray. And of course, no keys.

I had to use a trolley jack to move the car around to line up with the trailer, and the winch to get it on.

Horrible front spoiler, far too large, horrible fat rear wheel arches out of proportion. It is, and was, L15 black. The car cost $6,850 + shipping and insurance $1,350.

Did the very late TCS have rear anti-roll bars, as I have now seen this on two cars ? It looks like an after-thought and if a PO was daft enough to put a snow plough spoiler on the front, anything is possible as an after-thought.

Alex in Norfolk. 

Offline BDA

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #12 on: Monday,August 22, 2016, 04:02:17 PM »
TCs never came with a rear anti-roll bar. There was a company, ADDCO, that made them for Europas and it was something some POs made on their own. 

Offline 3929R

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday,August 23, 2016, 09:33:33 AM »
Bart, Congratulations on your new project.  :pirate:
 :ttiwwp:

Like Alex, when I picked mine up mine the keys were lost and steering wheel locked. Luckily one of the neighbors was a big guy who could pick up the front of the car just enough to point it in the desired direction, a feat probably not possible with any other car.

I believe Claudius in California made the rear sway bar on mine. Pics (from when I first took her out of storage) here- http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=120.msg668#msg668
Incidentally, Claudius was opened in 1971 and is still going- http://www.lotuspbc.com/
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline Grumblebuns

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Re: What a reasonable price
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday,August 24, 2016, 09:34:18 AM »
From your verbal description of the car, you got a fair deal, I think. The missing bits shouldn't be an issue (should have been disclosed by the seller) unless you're going to restore it to original condition. All of the missing parts should be available in aftermarket alternatives. I need to look but, I think I have a spare TC exhaust manifold and a distributor. After you check out the condition of the engine send me a PM on the parts you need.

Also post pictures when you get a chance.

Joji Tokumoto
Fallbrook, Ca