Author Topic: New Wheels  (Read 12694 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LeftAngle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: Beaufort, SC
  • Posts: 337
  • I don't say much, but when I do, I don't say much.
    • 0659R Photos
New Wheels
« on: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 01:20:55 PM »
 :newhere:   :coolpic:

Hello Europa Forum:  Here's my situation: My racing days are pretty much over, but I still love driving British sports cars.  It seems I have to modify everything I own to fit my concept of function and aesthetics, so if you're a purist, you'd be advised to stop reading this thread now, as what I'm about to put down will make you, well, ill.

Anyway, my Federal S2 is about to be reborn as close to my vision of what Ron Hickman and Colin Chapman's ideas would have evolved into had the original Europa design survived.  Lightness aside, I'll be reinforcing weak fiberglass areas, adding more wood, bling and sound deadening material to the interior and changing the exterior to look more 47/62-ish... Partly because of looks, but also to cover wider (much wider) tires.

I've been busy making Lotus badges on my 3D printer, the first of which went onto my newly re-covered seats.  Another batch are replacing the BBS logos on the "wrong" wheels and tires I picked up for a ridiculously low price.  I was planning on 15"  95.25mm pcd aluminum wheels, but couldn't turn down the offer of a set of BBS wheels off a BMW.  The BBSs are 17" and 5 stud and will require an adopter with a 2" extension, but with the low aspect tires, only 1/2" is added to the radius of the original wheels and tire size.

I haven't weighed the original wheels & tires, but the new ones probably weigh twice as much.  My mechanic says the additional torque won't be a problem until I upgrade the engine and the multi piston disk brakes I'll be adding will handle the additional mass OK.

That being said, and if there are still people out there who haven't stopped reading out of disgust, ( :) ) I'm hesitant to make that first cut into the body of my europa, so I'm eager for feedback from anyone who's added larger, 5 stud wheels and added flared fenders to their own Europa.

Handling or mechanical issues are my primary concern, but with the caveat that this car will eventually be competing in shows, not on a race track, so it really doesn't have to slide its rear end around a turn or hold up to a course's handful of excessive stress.

The last photo is a Photoshopped image of what the car might look like when the work is completed.

My apologies to the purists. 



« Last Edit: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 01:37:55 PM by LeftAngle »
Yes, it's work...   No, I don't mind it.

Offline LotusJoe

  • Twink Driver
  • Administrator
  • Super Member
  • **
  • Joined: Apr 2012
  • Location: Southern California
  • Posts: 941
  • Forum Administrator
    • LotusEuropa.org
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 02:04:41 PM »
 :Welcome: I'm no purist, so I look forward to seeing your progress on your car. But I'm fascinated with your 3-D printer, can you elaborate on it's capabilities?
Joe Irwin
3927R TC Special
(The Classic Barn Find)


Offline cal44

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Encinitas, Ca
  • Posts: 687
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 04:26:29 PM »
I'll stay out the stock vs. non.  But I would caution about having wheels that are to large, both height and especially width.

Look at the car from many angles.  I think a 13" looks just so on a Europa.  I reckon a 14" would look o.k.  With flared and a well detail arched fender/s you might get away with a 15" but no more.

Not being a track car,  excessive width would be questionable as the driving on the street  will cause the light weight car to handle poorly and bonce around like a rubber check from Bernie Madoff.

Mike
"Be Polite, Be Professional, But have a plan to kill everyone you meet"
General "mad dog" James Mattis
United States Marines

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 10:27:36 PM »
No apologies needed, it's your car when all said and done !

Stefan (mecky) in the Paddock section has got wider wheels and flared arches on his racing car, so if you want to get an idea of how it's done I guess he would be a good start - this is his thread and he has a website showing the mods & racing they do (link in the thread)

http://www.lotuseuropa.org/LotusForum/index.php?topic=65.0

I also have a winter project in mind to try out 15" wheels with 195 & 205 tyres, but I'm staying with the same PCD and using 6" wheels so there will be no external body mods, just a front wheel arch recess to allow clearance on full lock. (if you go much above 5.5" wide, 175 tyres on the front, apparently there are clearance problems on lock)  I'm also changing the wheel studs for Land Rover studs which are slightly longer and thicker than the OEM Lotus (Triumph) ones fitted as some modern wheels have bigger holes in  :)

Like Joe, I'm intrigued by your 3D printer. Ok, we're usually lagging behind the bleeding edge of technology on this side of the pond so I've heard of them but have no real idea of their capabilities. What sort of items and materials can you make/use with them ?  (that's worthy of a new thread if you like)

Brian


Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday,October 09, 2012, 10:45:16 PM »
Anyway, my Federal S2 is about to be reborn as close to my vision of what Ron Hickman and Colin Chapman's ideas would have evolved into had the original Europa design survived. 

There's an argument for saying that's already been done.....   and they called it "Elise"  :)

(with 15 x 5.5" front, 16 x 7" rear wheels, same PCD....)

Offline LeftAngle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: Beaufort, SC
  • Posts: 337
  • I don't say much, but when I do, I don't say much.
    • 0659R Photos
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 01:52:38 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.  I have to confess that 15" wheels better suit my sense of aesthetics, but a complete set of wheels and tires for $250 US was just too good to pass up.  If it turns out that 17" rims look too out of place, I can sell them and re-boot it with 15s.  The advantage I'd have doing that is the adaptors will already be in place and a tremendous choice of 5 stud wheels to choose from.

On to 3D printing.  I'll start another thread as Europa TC suggests, but let me warn those who are interested that this isn't a technology that's quite ready for the home market.  In 10 years it'll be as common as a microwave oven (and probably about the same size), but it is a disruptive technology, still in development, with multiple methods using multiple materials.  Unless you spend $20,000 US or more, the surface isn't finished and there's a learning curve that can be frustrating.  The machines that are affordable, use extruders to lay thermal plastic down in layers, building the part up in visible steps that need to be hand finished if the part is for show.  Extruders are quirky machines.  Even large manufacturers of extruded plastics will admit that extruding is as much of an art as it is a science.  Its not uncommon to walk through an extrusion plant and see paper clips holding scrap bits of wood and wire coat hangers in front of the dies to shape the parts into their final form.

If you plan to make custom parts for your ride, You'll also need to be adept at designing with 3D CAD.  That alone can take nearly a year to become proficient enough to build a decent, workable part.

That being said, my advice to everyone reading this is:  Don't wait.  It's the greatest technology out there for making parts that are either unavailable, or in the case of the Europa's instrument bucket and heater vents, vacuum formed as the originals were... Light as a feather, but delicate, cheesy looking and likely cracked by the time they're installed.

Here's a picture of another example:  The throttle cable wasn't clearing the top of the replacement valve cover (the original had warped long ago).   The bracket leading from the Webbers was mounted horizontally kinking the cable, creating a stiff peddle.  I printed a quick solution that, using the same horizontal mounting, angles the cable to clear the cover.  I even added a set knob so it can be easily removed... Why?  Because I could.  That is so cool.  My machine has become an unpaid employee.  I tell it what to make and then I go off and do something else while it makes it.  I used to have to design and make everything myself.  Now I only have to design and keep an eye on a sometimes quirky robot once in a while.  It also makes things for the wife once in a while, keeping me in good graces.

btw, the cap with the Lotus logo on it is also printed.
Yes, it's work...   No, I don't mind it.

Offline 3929R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
  • Posts: 603
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 07:52:51 AM »
Though I prefer more of an original Europa, I look forward to seeing your progress!

So what is the cost (time and materials) of printing one more of something you've already done?  (I do not have a need for any 3D badges... at least not that I know of.)
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 09:30:50 AM »
I'll look forwards to the new thread. You sound as if you've been through a steep learning curve, which I guess is to be expected. To me over here, it just sounds like something out of Star Trek !

Brian

Offline LeftAngle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: Beaufort, SC
  • Posts: 337
  • I don't say much, but when I do, I don't say much.
    • 0659R Photos
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 04:27:27 PM »
So what is the cost (time and materials) of printing one more of something you've already done?  (I do not have a need for any 3D badges... at least not that I know of.)

Tough question... Long-winded answer....

In the US, plastic costs about $65 per Kilo delivered.  Depending on the size, density, scrap and false attempts, material costs can range from 25¢ to $2 for something like a badge.  Because badges are to be looked at, there's a bit of finishing to do as well.  The ones I made for the seats were covered in epoxy (2 coats).  The wheel badges are larger, thicker and were printed with green and white ABS.  A second part, in yellowABS was made and inserted like a puzzle piece for the ones in the pictures, but I've since decided it's easier and looks better if the yellow part is painted.  These will also be covered in epoxy before I attach them to the wheel centers with another print that glues them in place.

The red part I made for the throttle cable is nearly hollow and one of several prototypes that will eventually become a strong, fitted component that looks like it belongs.  I personally don't like the way the cable has been run in my car (through the right side of the firewall, over the box and out of the left side bottom of the plastic console on its way to the adjustable throttle mechanism).  This type of component is more expensive time wise than what it cost in material.  The concept works but the designed part will be changing depending on what else needs to be modified and where my mind takes the build.  I know I'll be adding 1/16" aluminum diamond plate to the engine side of the firewall and possibly the same to the cockpit side with a hatchway cut through between the seats.  If I do that, the opening will be surrounded by a welded aluminum frame and a 1/2" lexan hatch bolted and sealed in place.  This will be done to give me easier access to the front of the engine bay and for bling, as the brightly polished and painted engine would be exposed to the occupants through the lexan hatch 8) .  The part will change as wires and hoses are re-routed to accommodate and I expect the throttle cable will be covered and fitted neatly to the aluminum firewall with pop-rivets (apparently Chapman loved pop- rivets, so I'll continue the saga :) )... But I won't know until I actually do it.

Since I'm doing this for my pleasure and not a client's, I'm being very generous with my time, making choices, analyzing, re-designing, re-analyzing and so on.  I'm taking Cal44's advice and attempting to make a 3D model of my Europa as it is, adding everything I think I want and looking at it from all angles.  I'll do this using Autodesk's 123Catch program (free) and Trimble's Sketchup (also free) to make scale wheels, tires and flares (not as easy as I make it sound).

Anyway... If you're asking in a round-about way; no, I won't be going into part production, but I'll freely post any stl files I make for anyone who's interested or needs them.  Inexpensive 3D Printers are beginning to show up all over the place and it's getting easier to find someone close to home who can print parts for a small fee or as a favor.  Even schools are getting into the business, so they will be an excellent source to print parts. (kids in elementary school today will be using tools that haven't even been invented yet, so forward thinking school systems are trying to stay up with technology's exponential curve).

Next, as soon as I get the facia out, I'll be making a more rugged instrument bucket (that can be fitted from the outside) and windshield vents. I'll keep you informed via a new thread on 3D printing if it isn't too far removed from the "Lotus" concept.  It seems to be an interesting idea among the people who've responded to my posts.

Yes, it's work...   No, I don't mind it.

Offline 3929R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
  • Posts: 603
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 06:58:52 PM »
It is very interesting.  Thanks for the details. 
Nope I did not intend to ask if you would be selling any reproduced parts.  I was just curious about how much goes into the first part versus multiples. 
Mark
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

Offline BDA

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Posts: 9,998
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 07:12:01 PM »
Those look like Compomotive wheels. I have similar ones except that mine have gold center sections. They have center sections for just about any bolt pattern or even knock-offs. If you got wheels with 5 bolt centers, you may have trouble getting them to fit. If you can find 4 to 5 bolt adapters, you may have problems with the offset. As you suggest 17" may be a bit tall. My wheels are 15" and they look just fine.

Hopefully the picture I attached will come out.

Offline LeftAngle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: Beaufort, SC
  • Posts: 337
  • I don't say much, but when I do, I don't say much.
    • 0659R Photos
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday,October 10, 2012, 10:39:12 PM »
Your car looks great.  My wheels are BBS RS198s with a 5 stud pattern of 120pcd.  These wheels look great on a BMW, but as you say, they may be a bit too large on an Europa, but I won't know until I see them in place (as soon as I replace the outer rim of the dinged one that allowed me to buy the entire set for $250).  I'm expecting that to cost in the neighborhood of $200, so for under $500 US, I'll have a great set of wheels and relatively new tires.  The way I see it is the most difficult issue with the Europa's 4 stud bolt pattern is their circle diameter (pcd) which is 95.25mm.  Very few wheel choices are available for that size and pattern in the US and from what I've seen, the prices aren't consistent with other, more common sizes.

Airbagit.com out of Mesa AZ can make the proper size adaptors for me and if you've ever watched those TV shows where they draw up concepts and then build the cars to match the drawings, you know that the finished vehicle rarely looks the same as the 2 dimensional drawing or photo.  Sometimes the real car looks better and sometimes it looks worse.

We're only looking at wheel size here, not the rolling radius, which is only 1/2" larger, so it's all about the looks.

I'll have to see the real thing before I can make an intelligent decision.  I doubt that it'll be more expensive to do it the way I want since a Craigslist ad will allow me to sell the wheels for more than what I paid, plus 5 stud adaptors will give me MANY more choices in the 15" range.

Of course, it's all moot until I gather up the courage to take a saw to those wheel openings.  :-\
Yes, it's work...   No, I don't mind it.

Offline LeftAngle

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Sep 2012
  • Location: Beaufort, SC
  • Posts: 337
  • I don't say much, but when I do, I don't say much.
    • 0659R Photos
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #12 on: Sunday,October 21, 2012, 05:24:55 AM »
If anyone is thinking about cutting away portions of their body, this is how I went about radius-ing my rear wheel wells.  I went to Lowes (here in the states) and picked up a can of black  "Plasti-Dip", a spray-on rubber used to cover tool handles.  It can be sprayed onto the area you're thinking of removing and peeled away without damaging the paint if you want to make changes. 

I roughly marked the radius of my opening using a string and a dry-erase marker (also removable) and taped around the line.  I covered the wheel with a large trash bag and sprayed Plasti-Dip onto the area I was planning on cutting.

This allowed me to step back and analyze the situation.  In my case, I felt the height of the opening needed to be reduced, so I carefully scored (not all the way through) the Plasti-Dip around the new line, peeled the unwanted part away and analyzed the result again.

This allowed me to be certain I was cutting the correct arc without worrying how it was going to look afterward.

Pictures:

1. Plasti-Dipped arc (before I modified it)
2. Final cut, with new wheel in place (car's still on jack so wheel is down a bit)
3. How far the flare will need to come out
Yes, it's work...   No, I don't mind it.

Offline Jas

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
  • Posts: 40
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #13 on: Monday,October 22, 2012, 07:09:39 AM »
Hi LeftAngle

Here is an Europa from the Swedish Modsport series with 18" inch rear wheels, maybe some insperation for your flares...  ;)
They are Front: 24/61-17 and Rear 27/65-18.
[/img]

You can see more here:
http://http://www.modsport.se/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=29&cntnt01origid=66&cntnt01detailtemplate=Nyhetsvisning&cntnt01returnid=67
Jannik
Denmark

You can do it fast
You can do it cheap
You can do it right
… pick any two!

Offline EuropaTC

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jun 2012
  • Location: Lincolnshire, UK
  • Posts: 3,140
    • LotusLand
Re: New Wheels
« Reply #14 on: Monday,October 22, 2012, 08:43:02 AM »
What a great shot, now that would look like a winner just standing still !

Brian