Renault 395-21 Transaxle

[Esprit2]

I'm considering converting my Type 65 Federal S2 Europa from a 336 4-speed to a 5-speed.   The trick is that I don't want to do either the 'Twin Link' chassis and suspension conversion or a cable shifter conversion.   I'd like the suspension to be stock when I'm done, and minimal chassis mods.   The rear cross-member/ tranny mount will have to move back, and the stock shift linkage will have to be extended.   I can live with that.

To that end, the Renault 395 transaxle is the way to go.   However, I understand that the early 395s with the clutch release lever on the left have 'loaded' differential assemblies that can support the stock Europa suspension;  and that the later 395s with the release lever on the right do not.   The late 395s are like NG3s in that regard.   Actually, the late 395s are like side-shifter NG3s.

Good information as far as it goes.   But when in the long list of 395 model numbers did the differential design change?   Which models can support the Europa's halfshaft as part of the suspension, and which models can't?   I need better resolution that 'early' and 'late'.

There is a 395-21 from a R18i for sale near me, it's priced reasonably, and I can pick it up...  no shipping cost.   I'm interested.   But the clutch release lever is on the right, which makes me wonder if it's 'late' enough to have the NG-style diff that cannot support the Europa's suspension.

Can someone tell me if the 395-21 is appropriate for use with the Europa's stock suspension (I know, the stub axles need to be swapped).   And is the differential a 2-spider or 4-spider?
John Collier?   Richard Mann?   Any body?

Short of opening the gearbox (since I don't own it yet),  what visual clues do I look for on the outside of the gearbox/ differential output area that would give me a clue?   Comparison photos would be very helpful.

Is there an internet source for that info?   I'm not above digging for my own answers, buy my efforts so far have not turned up the answer I need.   I've found bits here and there, but no one-stop shopping.   Dave Syers and Steve Swan's websites have a lot of info, but not what I'm looking for...  will 395-21 work in a near stock Europa?

*~*~*
I have driven Europas for many miles over many decades... all 4-speeds.   My learning curve must be a pretty flat line, 'cuz I still accelerate up the on-ramp, work up through the gears, get up to speed in 4th, then go for 5th... which is never there.   The car just screams for another gear or two.

My Europas have always been my daily drivers as well,  including long road trips.   Buzzing along for hours on the Interstate,  the frantic engine gets tiring.   I'm looking for an over-drive 5th gear for highway cruising,  not another short step in a close-ratio 5-speed.   For that, I'd like a 395-11.   But the 395-21 is near by/ convenient, and has the same gear ratios as the NG3-025 so many owners have installed in Europas.   First gear is lower than it should be, but I can live with that.

All you NG3-025 Europa drivers,  what do you think of the ratio spacing... and the low first gear in particular?

Thanks for your input.   Please volunteer answers to the questions I wasn't smart enough to ask.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)

[BDA]

I have an NG3-000 which has the same gear ratios as the 025 and the ratios seem fine to me. First is a little low but not too bad. I don't autocross or track my car though. Fifth is ok, but I could be a little taller. IIRC I'm going about 75 mph @ 3000 rpm. But I'm not unhappy with that either. I've driven mine on the highway for about four hours and it didn't seem buzzy. It was obviously a bit busy but again, not bad. It was a long time ago when I drove my car as a stock TC Special with a 5 speed. I drove it extensively on the highway and it didn't bother me - but then I was a stupid college kid so what did I know!

Sorry I'm not familiar with the 395 at all. If you don't get any takers here, you might try Richard at Banks or call Alpine-America (http://www.alpine-america.qc.ca/) which specializes in Renault and Lotus.

Good luck and keep us up to date!

[jbcollier]

I'm sorry, I can't answer all your questions.  I can answer some though:

- stock 395 diff is a two spider unit with the smaller ring gear bolt circle (same as 336)

- the output shafts are in a different location from the 336 which may increase negative camber.  If you do not want to go twin link, then you would have to use adjustable lower links.

- if the diff has "unstressed" output shafts, you can fit a Quaife LSD diff which will take the suspension loads, no problem.

https://shop.quaife.co.uk/lotus-europa-4-speed-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential

This gentleman fit a 395 from an R18:

http://lotus-europa.com/0119q/395_install.html

http://lotus-europa.com/0119q/

His clutch release lever was on the left though.

This is the service manual for the 395-21:

http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/Renault%20Type%20395%20Late%20Variant%20Transaxle%20Service%20Manual.pdf

You can see the clutch lever is on the right.  If you scroll down you'll find the input shaft is still the early style.  The diff looks to me that it has "stressed" output shafts as it is exactly the same as the diff in my 395-00.

[jbcollier]

PS:  I tried to email some of this info in response to your question on the yahoo list.  For some bizarre reason, my replies would not go through.

[Esprit2]

(Snip)...
- stock 395 diff is a two spider unit with the smaller ring gear bolt circle (same as 336)

- the output shafts are in a different location from the 336 which may increase negative camber.  If you do not want to go twin link, then you would have to use adjustable lower links.

John,
Thanks for the info, especially the manual for the 395-21.   It confirmed that the diff is NOT configured to support the Europa's stock suspension.

The 4-spider diff would have been nice, but I could live with a 2-spider.   The current 336 is a 2-spider and it has survived trouble free all these years.   I have no plans to hotrod the 821 more than it is, or to put in a dramatically more powerful engine.

And the possible increase in negative camber is a minor problem since the car is already equipped with adjustable lower lateral links.

This is the service manual for the 395-21:
http://www.lotus-europa.com/manuals/misc/Renault%20Type%20395%20Late%20Variant%20Transaxle%20Service%20Manual.pdf

You can see the clutch lever is on the right.  If you scroll down you'll find the input shaft is still the early style.  The diff looks to me that it has "stressed" output shafts as it is exactly the same as the diff in my 395-00.

The diff cross-sectional drawing tells the tale.   Compare it to a similar drawing for the Lotus 336, 352, 365, or an earlier version of the 395.

In the Lotus applications, the inner U-joint yoke butts up against a steel sleeve spacer, which slips through the lip seal and directly contacts the differential housing.   Then, finally the load path is completed on the other side via a similar  sleeve spacer and yoke.   Between the U-joints, there's a continuous steel-on-steel path through the transaxle.

In the 395-21/ NG3-025,  there is no steel-on-steel load path.   The inner CV-joint is pinned to the output shaft, and it all ends there.   Any inward axial loads would have to be carried by the roll pin, and it's not up to the task.

In the 395-21 and NG3,  the sleeve spacer has been deleted, the lip seal is re-positioned inward, and it has a smaller bore to run directly on the output shaft.   There's no gap through which a sleeve spacer could be slipped to facilitate the steel-on-steel load path.   And steel-on-rubber-on-steel isn't going to work.

I don't know what the problem might have been with your attempt to post over on LotusEuropa.   You post there regularly without problems.   Oh well.   Thanks for posting here.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)

[jbcollier]

Couldn't you just use the seal holders/diff bearing adjusters, output shafts and sleeves from your 336 tranny?

[Esprit2]

John,

I don't know, could I?   Are you telling me the gearbox housings are machined the same, and it's just the side nuts and seals that create the difference?   All else is equal, just swap the side nuts?

If so, does that apply to the NG3-025 as well?   It seems like that would have been a much easier alternative than the whole Twin Link conversion.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)

[jbcollier]

Did some more reading and you should be good if you use the 336 output shafts and seal/adjusters.  The only question is if you can live with the lower first gear.

Top gear ratios compared:

4th gear 336:  1.03 x 3.56 = 3.67

5th gear 395 early: 0.91 x 3.78 = 3.44

5th gear 395 late/365/NG: 0.86 x 3.78 = 3.25

5th gear some NG3: 0.78 x 3.78 = 2.94

5th gear in either of the last two will be a cruising gear only.  Hills will mean a shift into 4th.

[jbcollier]

From this site:

http://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html.

"Assuming that the rear suspension is not modified from the original Lotus design (i.e. no twin-link system, etc), the output shafts and seals from the NG3 will not function as desired. The solution is to disassemble both differentials and use the output shafts from the 352 (or other) transmission in the NG3 differential. Be careful to only use the Bakelite thrust washers where they were originally or you risk shredding the planet gears. Richard says that it is OK to reuse the place bolts holding the ring gear to the differential housing - these engines do not generate enough torque to be concerned. It is possible to get new place bolts from a Renault dealer, but they are quite expensive."

[jbcollier]

The stock 395/NG output shafts are longer and may have different pin hole sizes.  You have to use the 336/352 output shafts.

[BDA]

I got my NG3 from Richard so I'm not entirely sure what he did to it before I got it. It has been a long time, but I don't remember Richard saying I needed his twin link rear suspension for the NG3. Of course he might have set mine up knowing I was getting the twin link. In any event, the output shafts have the same roll pin hole and splines as the 365 that came in my car.

[Esprit2]

The only question is if you can live with the lower first gear.
(Snip)...
5th gear in either of the last two will be a cruising gear only.  Hills will mean a shift into 4th.

I'm aware of the ratios, and have pondered that for awhile.   I do believe the 395-11 would be better for my tastes and purpose, but a 395-21 popped up locally.   Convenience and lack of knowledge about details of the 395 series made it worth considering.   The big question became whether it was compatible with the standard rear suspension.

Minnesota has some rolling hill country, but no big elevation changes.   I'm not sweating that part too much.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)

[Esprit2]

The stock 395/NG output shafts are longer and may have different pin hole sizes.  You have to use the 336/352 output shafts.

Too bad there isn't a source for the shorter Lotus output shafts.   I'm not fond of having to cannibalize a perfectly good 336 for parts.   Just dreaming,  but I need to find a machine shop with an EDM to bore a new roll pin hole in the 395 / NG3 output shafts and bob the ends.   I wonder what that would cost for a pair.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)

[Esprit2]

Top gear ratios compared:
4th gear 336:  1.03 x 3.56 = 3.67
5th gear 395 early: 0.91 x 3.78 = 3.44
5th gear 395 late/365/NG: 0.86 x 3.78 = 3.25
5th gear some NG3: 0.78 x 3.78 = 2.94

For the sake of comparison,  if you were cruising along at 4000 rpm in 4th with a 336 or 352,  then the equivalent road-speed with the various 5-speeds would require these rpms:

Rpm .... overall ratio
4000 @ 3.663:1 = 336 & 352 in 4th
3771 @ 3.454:1 = 395-00 in 5th (it's a close ratio 5-speed, not a over-drive 'cruiser')
3591 @ 3.289:1 = 365-07  (stock Europa Twin Cam Special)
3552 @ 3.253:1 = 395-11,  -04 thru -09,  -12,  -21,  and NG3-025
3233 @ 2.961:1 = NG3-064 (but it has a very low 1st gear and poor intermediate spacing).

Note that in 5th, there's negligible difference between the Europa's 365 5-speed, and the 395-11 or -21.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North  (LOON)