4525R Back on the road

[E Paul]

I am giving up on the Yahoo List, so anyone looking should look for me here.
So my Europa's summer of discontent is over. I was busy with issues with my SeVen and when the Europa's radiator poured out its guts, it went under the tarp. So now the SeVen is doing its thing with no issues and I am back on the Europa.
Bought and installed one of the Chinese aluminum radiators once I found it was going to take $700 to fix the Europa radiator back to original. They tried to repair, but too far gone. The aluminum radiator has been fine with really long periods of idling in the garage, so all good there.
So I had a major MegaSquirt screwup. The firmware on the Europa's Megasquirt was pretty old and I thought I would update it to the latest version so that it would at least be close to the one on the Seven (now I need to update the SeVen as it is one rev behind the Europa and I wont screwup this time). Anyway, when I went to reinstall the tune I realized that it got lost in a hard drive crash last year...major head smack!!!! It really is a pain to develop a tune from scratch and that was my mission last week. Had all of the usual new tune issues, but have it pretty well sorted now.
I did find some wiring issues, one of which stranded me for a bit on the side of the road...35 year old splice fell apart.
Fixed my stuck gas gauge and a bunch of minor issues which cropped up from sitting for a long time...these cars really do not do well when they sit.
Anyway, a couple of other minor things to just check then I can go to inspection.
Drove it 50 miles or so in the last week, so I am feeling pretty roadworthy.
Paul Harhen

[460384]

Great!  Good to hear that your Europa is on the road again.

[BDA]

Lots of new people here lately so l don't know if I've welcomed you yet, so in case I haven't, 

Glad you got things going on the Europa again. When you get a chance, post some pictures of both your cars.

[StrawberryCheesecake]

Welcome! I've got a megasquirt install on a track day Scirocco. How have you found it on the Europa? Do you have any before/after maps?

I found I got 10% power gain on the same engine, and a wider power band, going from Kjet injection to Megasquirt.

[E Paul]

I am actually an old member here, but was never active. I was quite active in the Yahoo groups thing, but I am throwing in the towel over there as I prefer this type of format.
The Europa has been injected since 1980 or so. I had worn out the throttle body jets on the Z-S carbs and new parts were only available at an insane prices...I said to myself, I can adapt fuel injection and move into modern times! It actually had a K- Jetronic from a Scirocco.
That stuff wore out about 6 years ago and I went MegaSquirt. I would not say that I really saw increases in power until MSextra came along and Tuner Studio had new tools to help with tuning. As mentioned above, I lost my old tune and this tune is less than a week old, so nowhere near done yet. The car feels very strong already though as my tuning method has really improved having done some other cars since then.
Paul

[EuropaTC]

This is really off topic, but I can't help being intrigued by the last few comments. I don't profess to understand it but I can see how modern technology works, the thing that always puzzles me is how you manage to work out what you need to do to convert something running on carbs to injection ? How do you work out the maps, do you have a rolling road or is it just a case of trial and error ?

Brian

ps - a belated     I'm still on the Yahoo list in digest mode but rarely post, it's just harder work than a forum like this.

[StrawberryCheesecake]

 

I am actually an old member here, but was never active. I was quite active in the Yahoo groups thing, but I am throwing in the towel over there as I prefer this type of format.
The Europa has been injected since 1980 or so. I had worn out the throttle body jets on the Z-S carbs and new parts were only available at an insane prices...I said to myself, I can adapt fuel injection and move into modern times! It actually had a K- Jetronic from a Scirocco.
That stuff wore out about 6 years ago and I went MegaSquirt. I would not say that I really saw increases in power until MSextra came along and Tuner Studio had new tools to help with tuning. As mentioned above, I lost my old tune and this tune is less than a week old, so nowhere near done yet. The car feels very strong already though as my tuning method has really improved having done some other cars since then.
Paul

I find a wideband lambda meter is essential to get the fuel map right. I was lucky in that I had some help from a guy who has lots of experience mapping ECUs, for an OEM by day, and on tuning projects by night.

10% power before & after seems to be a realistic gain - depends on fuel quality too though, as it depends on a more aggressive ignition map.

[lotus4me]

This is really off topic, but I can't help being intrigued by the last few comments. I don't profess to understand it but I can see how modern technology works, the thing that always puzzles me is how you manage to work out what you need to do to convert something running on carbs to injection ? How do you work out the maps, do you have a rolling road or is it just a case of trial and error ?

Brian

ps - a belated     I'm still on the Yahoo list in digest mode but rarely post, it's just harder work than a forum like this.

brian
I did this many years ago on a turbocharged imp engine......believe me it was a pita........i just about got it running using  and modifying  basic maps supplied by the ecu supplier [omex] .....fitting a lambda sensor was most helpful ...it went quite well in the garage, but tried to drive it and.....nothing.
admitted defeat and took it to rolling road......sorted!

fred

[E Paul]

Absolutely mandatory is the wideband O2 sensor.
On the Europa, I am running an ignition map that just follows the original distributor mapping. There is probably more power available, but would need a steady state dyno to find it.
Fuel maps can be worked out very close to optimal using the logging and tuning tools in Megalogviewer and Tuner Studio. Ignition maps are another matter.
I have an ignition map that was developed on a dyno from a friend on my 20V 4AGE in the SeVen and that thing really is amazing. I am sure that I could still find a bit of power on the dyno however.
The tools to do a very good road tune are adequate without the dyno...that last bit of power needs direct measurement.
Paul

[EuropaTC]

Thanks for the last post and hints.

I looked up Megalogviewer and found out what a wideband O2 sensor is (every day is a school day comes to mind again)  and think I can see how it's done.   Ignition I can get, it was how you balanced fuel that puzzled me.  Now I can see how you'd get revs vs fuel whilst stationary but not exactly sure how you balance the revs vs throttle position/engine load.  Presumably you connect up the recording gear and go for a trip down the road ? However you guys do it, I'm still in the stage of "is that magic ?" on how you sort out an unknown engine/cams.

Brian

[E Paul]

There are several ways to develop base fuel maps, all of which are really just a starting point. Ignoring ignition timing for the moment, you adjust the fuel table in the garage until you can rev the engine slowly without misfires (they destroy O2 sensor information). I then adjust the rest of the table accordingly even though I have not driven it. I will just bump the cells up or down based on what a no load condition mandated. Then go take it for a drive while logging. Come home. I then use the VE  Analyze tool and let it adjust the tables, I save that tune and bring it up in Tuner Studio where I can see it in 3D. I then make a whole series of adjustments based on what I see. My goal is to make the map as smooth as possible while accommodating the little quirks each engine seems to have. Then repeat. By the third iteration, I usually have a car that runs pretty good. It might have a little stumble here and there, but totally driveable. Then I go out and get some very long logs and notice while driving where the stumbles are. Look carefully at the log where those stumbles took place and make small adjustments. Usually at this point I turn on EGO correction as well but limit its authority. All of the corrections to the fuel table and accelerator enrichments are very minor at this point and the car runs like a normal car. Now, if you are so inclined it is time to take it to the dyno to see if more power can be had. The dyno operator will be much happier that you came in with a good running car and you will be happier with a smaller invoice since he did not have to figure out how to make your car run. I wont be taking my Europa to the dyno (unless I get a good deal on dyno time) and will focus more on improving economy by leaning things out in the light load/moderate RPM sections of the fuel table.
Hope this helps with the understanding.
Paul Harhen
4525R

[EuropaTC]

Thanks again Paul.

Having read your post twice now, plus some more googling to check what I'd forgotten from the first time around the software site and I "think" I can see how you go about it.   Well, that means I can understand the stages you've explained but I would have no idea of how to do it myself, the confidence would evaporate at the first misfire !  From the way you write & explain things, it's clear that you've done this journey quite a few times.

I didn't realise just how the industry for the enthusiast has moved along though, some of the things described are still in the realms of "magic" to someone like me who thinks an air flow meter to balance webers is a neat idea 

Brian

[3929R]

  How about some pictures?