gearbox question

[lotus4me]

hi all
can someone guide me?
looking at importing a tc project which has had a 365 fitted......
365 boxes are apparently expensive.......i have been offered a 336 box, but presumably this will not fit the 365 hoop/bracket...
is it easy to swap the support to take the 336?
apart from 5 speeds, is the 365 'better' [stronger?]
are the shifting/linkage operations very different?
thanks in advance
fred
also, does the standard tc/fordxflow/prexflow bellhousing take the renault gearbox without  mods?

[BDA]

I'm a little confused whether you'll be getting the 365 with the car or if you need to get a tranny. If would keep the 365 if it's coming with the car. I don't know the relative strength between the 365 and 336 but I doubt the 336 is any stronger than the 365. The rear hoop will have to be changed to fit the 335 where a 365 was. The shift linkage is also quite a bit different.

If you're looking for a new tranny, I would get an NG3. It's a 5 speed and will require a different rear hoop also, but it's a strong transmission and I think parts are more available. Richard at Banks sells kits for it including shift linkage.

[jbcollier]

365 trannies are rare and expensive.  There are a few options out there but all of them will require some custom fabrication work for the rear mount and shift mech.  It's not hard but it can be fiddly and time consuming.

A "standard" Ford bell housing will not bolt up to a Renault box.  Lotus made a custom bell housing to fit the TC engine to the Renault tranny.  They are available new from Banks and a few other places. Used occasionally on this list and ebay.

The 365 has a four spider diff which is stronger.  You can fit a LSD diff to the 336/395 trannies which makes it stronger than the even the 365 box.  The rest of the tranny (gears and shafts) are of similar strength.

[lotus4me]

thanks all for the replies.......it's a bit clearer now......apologies for my total ignornce!
the tc project Im looking at was originally a tcs I think with hoop for 365, but at the mo  it's minus engine and tranny......
it would be simplest [including linkages] and best [originality] to stick with the 365...... but when budget is limited...
if I go with a 336 [temporarily? ] would rejigging the linkage  and hoop to suit be a viable option? and within the capabilities of a diy mechanic? [bit of experience but no access to machine shop facilities]

  fred 

[jbcollier]

The simplest would be to fit a later 352 four speed as at least the linkage would be simpler to adapt.  There are lots of people doing conversions so be patient and advertise what you are looking for.

[EuropaTC]

thanks all for the replies.......it's a bit clearer now......apologies for my total ignornce!
the tc project Im looking at was originally a tcs I think with hoop for 365, but at the mo  it's minus engine and tranny......
it would be simplest [including linkages] and best [originality] to stick with the 365...... but when budget is limited...
if I go with a 336 [temporarily? ] would rejigging the linkage  and hoop to suit be a viable option? and within the capabilities of a diy mechanic? [bit of experience but no access to machine shop facilities]

  fred 

No need for apologies,  if you don't know, you don't know - it's that simple.    And it's far better to ask dumb questions than make even dumber mistakes !

I'm not trying to upset anyone with a 365 box so please don't anyone throw things, but quite honestly that's the last box I'd fit if I had to start from scratch.   Nothing wrong with the box itself and if you have a good one with the car, marvelous, stick with it.   

But....  before I bought my car I had a look at a JPS with a 365 box in my friend's garage for repairs. The owner was fed up after 6 months and wanted rid,  the car was for sale "as is". The problem was one of the gears had stripped teeth and even back then no-one had spares. Bearings, yes, but some of the internals were apparently only used on a few cars so parts were hard to come by, and that was less than 10yrs after production finished.  I spent a few weeks and a lot of ICI's time and money on phone calls trying to solve it because otherwise the car was excellent, but no joy.  I can't imagine it being any better these days.

So - as JB says, the 352 has a similar linkage to the 365, the 336 is different.  Can you DIY it ? I can't see why not but would assume there's welding and fabrication involved - are you comfortable with that ?  To be perfectly honest I'd go the NG3 route myself and try for a cable change as well.

As a final point, although we all assume a TCS has a 5 speed box, but it's worth checking. I think the early ones had 4 sp with 5sp as options.

[lotus4me]

again   thanks for the info, but now i'm a bit confused......after doing a search, it seems that some europas were fitted with the 352 box, which has similar internals to the 336......interesting to note the problems with the 365.....is this common?
ng3 might be the way to go, but banks europa's price of £1500 is a bit steep for me......

welding and simple fabrication would be ok!!

fred

[RoddyMac]

You should be able to find an NG3 for a bit less than £1500  on your side of the Atlantic:

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Boite-a-vitesse-Renault-Espace-2-1turbo-D-/400988755189?hash=item5d5ccad4f5

[EuropaTC]

Hi Fred,

I didn't write that last post as well as I should have. What I meant was that I don't think there are common serious problems with the 365 box but if you do get a bad one then it could work out expensive or even impossible to fix.   

So from the viewpoint of someone looking to source a 'box that presumably you can't test drive then you need to be aware of the spares situation in case whatever you buy needs fixing, hence my comments. If you find a car complete with 365 box that's working then fine, go for it !

Without checking I'm not sure but seem to think that when the TC was launched the early ones came with the 336 box of the S2, then they changed to the 352 during the production of the TC and when the TCS was launched the 352 4-sp box was standard with the 5sp as an option. So possibly some TCS cars had 4 sp boxes but every one I've seen has always been 5sp.

I've seen NG3 boxes for upwards of £300 on Ebay but it's not a drop-in option because there's a bit of fabrication needed. However it is a well-worn path and lots of info on this and other places. If you can weld and bash metal into shapes you'll be fine.....

Brian

[BDA]

Just seconding what Roddy and Brian said. I think the NG3 is the better option by far - it's at least as strong as a 365 and parts can be had for it. It does require some fabrication which might complicate things, but if you can get past that, I think you'll be happy.

The fabrication required comes from the new rear hoop and the linkage. Part of his price comes from some modifications he does to the box, the shift linkage, and the rear mounts to the hoop. This web page explains how to make the required mods to the NG3 (http://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html). I would also expect that Richard would be willing to sell you individual parts such as the linkage kit, pilot bushing, rear mounts, etc. if you wanted to do the mods yourself or have them done for you. There are people on the yahoo group who have fabricated a cable shifter setup that does not require most of the mods to the box, but then I think there is more fabrication associated with the cable shifter setup.

Richard's NG3 kit is a good easy way to go, but I think there are ways to pinch some pennies and still get an NG3 in the back of your Europa.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing.

[blasterdad]

You should be able to find an NG3 for a bit less than £1500  on your side of the Atlantic:

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Boite-a-vitesse-Renault-Espace-2-1turbo-D-/400988755189?hash=item5d5ccad4f5

I remember seeing a post on here where a member was using a Renault espace gearbox in his Europa. got it at a junkyard IIRC... Don't remember what engine he was using though...

[lotus4me]

hi all
I am grateful for all the replies and info....
here's my current thinking....
I am unlikely to be doing lots of motorway cruising [if any], so 5 speeds not a priority...anyway, read somewhere that acceleration is better with 4 speed, ..also, 365 and ng3 options are expensive:D
the 336 is cheapest option, but probs with re-jigging rear hoop and linkage....

 looking at banks online catalogue, they show that the gearbox mounting for the 365 AND 352 are the same.....

soooo, does that mean that the 352 will fit the 365 support hoop?

is the linkage for the 352 identical to the 365  i.e. straight swap?

is my thinking sensible?

  fred

[BDA]

Hi Fred,

The workshop manual says the linkage for the 352 and 365 are the same but it shows different rear hoops for them. I can't tell a lot from the pictures but it appears possible that they are similar enough that they could be adapted to mount either. Richard or somebody here with experience with both could probably tell you more.

BTW - Joe posted scans of the workshop and parts manuals here: http://www.lotuseuropa.org/workshop_manual.htm

There are searchable pdf versions plus a lot of collected documentation here: http://lotus-europa.com/manuals/

[EuropaTC]

Hi Fred,

Yes, I think your logic is sound providing you're into some metal bashing.  Looking at the chassis in the parts manuals, it would seem when they bought out the TCS in order to offer the 352 as standard & 365 as an option they decided on a "one size fits all" rear hoop.  If you then move along to the gearbox section you can see they had different rear plates for the gearboxes, so it looks very much like you get a TCS chassis and fabricate the appropriate gearbox mount to bolt in place.

A picture probably works best at this sort of thing, so......

Edit to add;
1. Mine is a TC with the 352 box & appropriate mounting plate. Should you get to the stage of making one, I can do pictures & dimensions for you. It is a very simple construction.
2. I don't think the gear change linkage is identical. The front bit is but IIRC the rear section has a different part number although from a casual glance at the 5sp cars it looks similar. It's probably bent at a slightly different angle ?  (a pure guess, we'll need a 365 owner to chip in here)

[BDA]

I just looked it up in the parts manual and you're right about the shift linkage, Brian. In fact there are two listed for 352 boxes. One for serial numbers up th 17000 and another for after those (I assume that refers to the serial number of the tranny. I found on r.d. Enterprises site that the 352 come with either a 13mm or 15mm selector shaft. ). Then there's another one fo 365s.

Somewhere I heard that the 365 had a very limited production and maybe only for Europas. I assume 352 parts are more common.