Changing the Brakes to Discs Rear and Ventilated Discs to Front

[4129R]

Has anyone had any experience of fitting the Banks kits for ventilated front, and disc rear?

If so, what about the master cylinder? Is it suitable, or does it need changing for a smaller or larger diameter one?

I am toying with the idea of fitting a 170BHP lump, and the thought of stopping it sprang to mind.

Then I need to address the gearbox, will the Renault 5 speed take 170 BHP?

Having got the going and stopping right, the thought of quick gear changes is not a good one.

[BDA]

I have both the Banks vented front discs and rear disc kits. Just like everything Richard does, they are of great quality. Both use floating calipers. I'm a little foggy on how the rears came together, but IIRC, I had some issues with my setup and Richard swapped my uprights with others that had the caliper mount bolted on.

They stop really well and I use the standard TC m/c. I asked Richard about brake bias issues and he said there wouldn't be any and there aren't.

I had a 365 originally in my car. I asked Richard about that since I have a ~180BHP BDA engine and he said that the NG3 was not really stronger. I got an NG3 from him for better access to spare parts. More recently, I have heard that the NG3 is stronger. I don't know the truth, but I would trust Richard. You should confirm my memory with Richard. I would believe him over anybody other than a Renault transmission engineer that worked in the early '80s!

Richard has a very nice kit for the NG3 also. You will need to change the rear frame "hoop" that picks up the rear of the tranny and if you use his linkage, there is some fabrication involved there, too. Others on the lotuseuropa yahoo group have implemented cable shifters. I believe those are for un-modified NG3s (Richard makes some changes to way the gear selection shaft works).

You didn't ask, but you might also be interested (I don't know your budget, of course) in Richard's twin link rear suspension. It is a great addition to the car.

Let me know if I can answer any more questions. Let us know what you do! Good luck!

[4129R]

Thanks for all that info.

Did you have any problem with fitting the engine, and hitting the bulkhead where all the belt driven parts are turning? I am thinking of fitting a 1600cc Wilcox BDG.

I am thinking of using the car for sprints and hill climbs, so 170 BHP in a light car with a low C of G, and brakes that work, seemed to me a better option than forking out for a motorbike engined Jedi. http://www.formulajedi.com/cars

The Jedi has around 185 BHP and weighs around 325 kg without me, but I think that may be frighteningly quick for me. I am used to 459 BHP in 1000kg, and that is OK in a car geared for 176 MPH. The Jedi does 150+. The Europa with 170 BHP should do 155 if the engine revs to 7500. I recall getting 124mph out of a Weber carbed JPS, and that must have been at around 6000 rpm. 

[BDA]

You will need/want to put a door in your firewall so you can get to the water pump and cam belt. I put some mylar covered sound/heat insulation on the firewall. I built the door out of a thick plate (~.100") and was able to put some of that insulation on it but toward the top where the cam sprockets are, there is very little insulation because of the lack of space. There is no problem clearance from the boot.

One of the nice things about using a BD* engine is that it is pretty much a bolt in. The engine mounts, bell housing, etc. is the same as the TC. I have a dry sump but I didn't do anything to lower the engine any further. If you're really motivated, you might be able to lower the engine/tranny a couple of inches.

I like the BD* engines for the Europa since the BDA was basically the next iteration of the TC. You should be able to get plenty of power up to 7500 and higher, but I would have to say those engines are very expensive. Some have used the Toyota 4AGE (which is really a Japanese BDA) and many have used the Ford Zetec which is a much cheaper alternative. There should be some good go-fast parts for both of those for reasonable cost. Of course, either of those options will require more fabrication to your frame, bell housing, etc. Unfortunately, I really can't give you advice on the relative costs of the complete swap. I think a lot depends on how far you want to take your car down and how handy you are - or how handy your friends are - to do the fabrication! :-)

Richard would be a good source of engine swap information, too. He's certainly done a lot of them!

[4129R]

I had a 4AGE in an AE86 Corolla GT I used for International Rallying 124 bhp out of a standard 1600cc. It was very reliable, but they are hard to tune unless you have access to all the computer stuff. I want something on carbs. I am fed up with expensive computer diagnostics.

[BDA]

I thought I had replied to this already! You can put Webers on a Toyota 4AGE. Here's a kit on fleabay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toyota-4AG-4AGE-MR2-GTS-Genuine-Weber-Redline-Dual-40DCOE-Carburetor-kit/321676868764?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D28772%26meid%3Dfcd00b08eaf84a74aaf116d34aaebe69%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D321649246680

If you're looking for 180BHP, you might need to go to 45mm throats though - at least that's what I've got.

[4129R]

For anyone who has or who is thinking of fitting the front vented discs from Banks, I put the stuff together last night in the kitchen to see how it went together, and I have found a problem where the brake pads don't seat in the calipers correctly because of some casting lumps in the calipers.

There are lumps on both sides of the caliper so it affects the seating of both pads.

Surprisingly on one of the calipers the pad clears the outer lump, but he other caliper needs careful filing to the outer.

The inner sides, where the piston is, need quite a lot of filing with probably 1/4" of metal to come off.

Now I just need to find out what thread is on the wheel studs, and get the correct wheel nuts.

I ordered the discs for 108mm PCD (4 1/4") so there is a much larger selection (Minilite) of wheels to fit. Triumph at 3 3/4" PCD is a very limited selection.

I have to send the rear hubs to Richard to re-drill for the extra 1/2" PCD. I just hope he fits the same wheel studs as he put on the front !

Meanwhile, does anyone know the origin of these discs (rotors) so I can easily get replacement pads?

[BDA]

Before I started filing on my calipers, I would call Richard first. Obviously, the pads should fit. I had no problems with mine.

[4129R]

I have files the lumps out on the way, and the pads now seat in the calipers properly on full open travel. As the casting is aluminium alloy I think, it didn't take long with an ordinary hand file.

He has supplied the new ventilated discs with M12 x 1.5mm studs, so now I am going to have to drill and tap new threads in all my Minilite wheel nuts.

The discs have metric nuts and bolts, the packing around the whole delivery had Volvo written on the cardboard, so quite where the discs and calipers came from is yet to be established.

[Serge]

I would be careful trying to drill and tap wheel nuts. Tapped thread isn't that strong. I bought a set of M12x1.5 wheel nuts for about 16 pounds. Not worth the risk in my opinion.

Serge

[4129R]

I used to own a few AE86 Toyota Corolla GTs so I know that 1.5 is a Toyota nut, medium pitch, with fine being 1.25 and coarse being 1.75.

So I put my thinking hat on, and thought whether the sleeved wheel nuts from a Toyota would fit the Minilite wheels to my new Banks vented front discs with 12mm x 1.5 studs.

As it happens, I own an old Toyota Landcruiser which I have had for 16 years, it has done 210,000 miles, it is worth FA, but pulls the side off  house and is worth its weight in gold for the towing and the moving it has done for me, especially with a full length alloy roof rack on which double beds have been strapped.

Well, I just took one of the wheel nuts off the Land Cruiser, and it is a perfect fit on the stud, and in the Minilite. 20 ordered on eBay for next to nothing. Problem solved. Thanks for the idea Serge. 

[4129R]

Problems so far fitting the rear discs:-

1) To undo the rear large hub nut, I had to get the wife to sit in the car with her foot on the brake, while I used a 3/4 drive socket attached to a 3ft breaker bar with a 5ft scaffold pole attached, to undo that f'ing nut. Otherwise the tyre just slid on the concrete when I turned the nut.

2) Broke a hub puller trying to get the hub off to send to Richard to get re-drilled for 108PCD, so it  is off to buy a better hub puller tomorrow.

3) With all the rust removed from the shaft and the hub, the other side slides on easily, so it must be rust causing the hub not to come off.

4) The brackets for the caliper mounting have the holes drilled incorrectly, so back to Richard.

5) The bracket fouls the rear upright, so ask Richard.

6) There is a raised flange on the hub which fouls the disc so it won't seat flush. Raised flange needs machining off.

7) Attaching the new very long flexible brake pipe to the existing brake pipe system looks near impossible without removing the whole rear trailing arm.

Only 1 finger leaking blood today so far.

[Serge]

Try heating the hub and stub axle. If the hub has been installed with loctite, it make take some heat to soften the loctite.

Serge

[EuropaTC]

Try heating the hub and stub axle. If the hub has been installed with loctite, it make take some heat to soften the loctite.

Serge

As Serge says, if the job has been done properly in the past then there's no way you'll pull the hub off without breaking down the loctite with a blowtorch.  What I do is put the puller in place and then use a propane torch on the hub and slowly turn the spanner on the puller. It will gradually slip off, just keep on with the heat until it moves. Don't be surprised if it takes 4 or 5 minutes of heating  to get anywhere with it.

Brian

[4129R]

Went into my local tool shop in Norwich to get a heavy duty puller to get the hub off. What an Aladdin's cave that place is.

Told them about the 5ft scaffold pole to undo the hub nut. They told me they sold a 3ft breaker bar to a mechanic and he came back the next day with it bent like a banana. They asked him how long the scaffold pole was he used. He confessed. He showed them the video. 3 men hanging off a 12ft scaffold pole on a 32mm nut. Eventually it came undone. When they went to buy a new nut, the man in the shop said as it is done up to 450Nm, you need to break the nut, not undo it. Read the manual next time !

I told them I was working on the rear hub of a Europa, one of them asked me if it was a real Europa. I told him it was a 1974. He told me it was his favourite car, and he hasn't seen one for as long as he can remember, and this is about 20 miles from the Lotus Factory. It seems where he lives, all the others in the street work for Lotus. I told him I will take the car to the shop as soon as the brakes are fitted.

Well, they sold me two hub pullers. One was cast aluminium. I couldn't do the nuts up on the wheel studs to hold it in place as 3 3/4" was too narrow, so after much trying, that puller was abandoned for a bigger three leg gear puller. I soaked the hub in Coca Cola, (they told me this is the best thing for getting rid of rust). After half an hour, I heated up the hug with a butane blow torch, and very very slowly the hub came off. I left the nut on the end of the drive shaft to locate the centre of the puller so it didn't slide to one side.

So tips for the day, Coca Cola is good at dissolving rust, and heat is definitely needed on a hard to undo rear hub.

Thanks for the advice.

Alex in Norfolk UK, (with 2 leaking fingers).