1972 Lotus Europa Twin Cam?

[MAK]

I still haven't lost my desire for a Europa, this 1 is within 45 minutes from my house.  I am not a mechanic, and I know what I'm getting into, but know enough to know what I shouldn't tackle. There is a British car shop 30 minutes from me - does everything from daily driver to Pebble Beach restorations.
He's not cheap but in line with my independant Mercedes shop -

So, I need you opinion on this one:
Sellers comments
1972 Lotus Europa $22000. If you are not going to be willing to pay this price, please move on.
Car drives and rides well. As close to a Street Legal Formula One car you can get. Paint Looks great at 20 feet. I great example at this price. Rebuilt engine, new clutch installed. Extra wheels and tires (At least a $2000 value) Nothing is wrong with current tires and wheels. Lots of extra smaller parts go with it.  I will be happy to drive with prospective buyer in passenger seat. True Mileage Unknown/ Title in my name
Due to Downsizing I must clean out my classic cars

 Cons:
paint needs to be refreshed and
crack in exhaust pipe. I mended with tape exhaust repair kit.

[BDA]

I am in no way an appraiser of a Europa but this looks like a decent deal. If you've been patiently waiting for a Europa to come your way for a long time, this may be a good one to hop on. The Weber head is very desirable. It's hard to tell from the glare but it looks like a nice dash. The paint is admittedly not the best but it's plenty presentable. You would definitely not be embarrassed to be seen in it. And there are some spare parts that may come in handy. A rebuilt engine is also a plus.

I would see him soon and check it out. If you have a buddy who knows cars, you might bring him along. I'd also check receipts for the engine build or failing that, ask for a compression test (even better would be a leak down test) either from him or a nearby shop.

Check underneath the car for rust and make sure it has been garage stored and driven occasionally.

Good luck!

[EuropaTC]

I'm from the other side of the pond so it doesn't make sense for me to comment on the asking price, that really depends on the US market.

Has the paint been cut/polished already ? It looks shiny and I wonder if that's red dust around the sides of the engine bay ?  The Weber head and rebuilt engine is something that I would prefer, all of the Federal exports had stromberg carbs and lower power outputs. Rebuilding a TC engine isn't cheap any more so I'd want to see exactly what was done, for example rebore/regrind/valve guides/seats/etc or just replacing bearings/rings.

Personally I'd go and look at it, you can't make a decision on photos alone because as BDA says it looks very presentable even if the vendor says it's 20' paintwork.

Just be aware that some parts, glass, chassis for example will be expensive for you to import from the UK if you can't get locally. Take a good look at the chassis, they usually go at the front first and then make a list of what you think will need replacing - trim, suspension, etc, before you start talking cash. Personally I wouldn't be interested in aquiring a second set of wheels unless I intended to use them, they'd just clutter up my garage !

As for the paint, if you can live with it then fine but if you're factoring in a respray them despite the fact these cars are relatively small, a full professional respray will be very expensive - typically £8-£10k for a good job over in the UK.

Brian

[jbcollier]

Take it to the British car shop and have them give it a thorough inspection.

Have a very good look at the paint.  Can you live with it?  A proper professional paint job could cost as much as the purchase price.

[Pfreen]

Can you take a photo of the id plate in the front boot?
That tells what the original color is and when it was made.  I think it also has the engine number.  I see it has webers so is this a European car or if it is a federal model, someone out the weber head on.

[Clifton]

For $22k, I would expect the flasher to not be hanging down by it's wires and dirty carpets. What else is there you can't see. Never trust a seller unless you know them.

[BDA]

Good eye, Clifton!

I think at $22,000, a buyer should expect a nice well-sorted car and a (I believe it’s a buzzer) hanging down to the driver’s legs and dirty carpets could be a bad sign or it could just have been a bad day to take the pictures. They are easily fixed but they could also be a tell, evidence that maintenance may have been shoddy.

I think it would pay a perspective buyer to pay a little more attention to everything before plunking down his money.

[Bryan Boyle]

Good eye, Clifton!

I think at $22,000, a buyer should expect a nice well-sorted car and a (I believe it’s a buzzer) hanging down to the driver’s legs and dirty carpets could be a bad sign or it could just have been a bad day to take the pictures. They are easily fixed but they could also be a tell, evidence that maintenance may have been shoddy.

I think it would pay a perspective buyer to pay a little more attention to everything before plunking down his money.

Sometimes people think they have more than what they have, or don't understand the vagries of selling a limited interest car like these things. 

I know what I'd take for my car.  What I've casually listed it at has generated a couple enquiries, some 'interesting' offers of trades (including a garage full of 70s detroit iron resto projects).  Probably the only trade I'd consider would be either a later 7 or a later Elite. 

But, yeah, that seems like a lot for a car that will need some serious investment of wrench time.

[MAK]

Well, went to look at the car today (45 minutes away), overall looked like a good driver's car.  Quick drive, steering felt tight, no rattles - surprised, suspension felt good, all gauges worked, windows worked. Has been garage kept under a cover since he owned it, next to a 70's TR6 also under cover, no oil or residue on garage floor. His other cars both newer Land Rover Defenders. He jacked the front right side up about 4" - took some pictures - on 1 of the pictures is that rust on the front frame? or rust on something else - I didn't want to get under the car

History per owner - bought the car 6 years ago in New Jersey from Aston Matin dealer, engine was redone 2023, paperwork forth coming, water pump & clutch replaced 2023 parts from RD Ent. original type. Shocks didn't know - he didn't replace.  Repainted prior to his ownership - It was certainly a passable paint job, nowhere near the best but there were no paint cracks anywhere!, door hinges were replaced with adjustable (?) no radio. Original dashboard was re-veneered, Interior was clean, dash pad looked good, whatever was hanging in pictures wasn't present today and all gauges worked.
 Looked up registry see below - seems that there are 2 cars with same#, i believe it's the 72mm2467r.

72062464R   Bruce Elrick   Surry B.C.   As invoiced:
Last Updated: 9/14/10      British Columbia   Vin Number: 74/2464R
      Canada   Date Built: 6/1972
         Date Invoiced: 6/30/1972
         Engine #: S27083
         Transmission #: 4 Speed
         Original color: L13 - Pistachio Lime Green
         Condition:
         Current color: Regency Red
         A project, but making good progress. A lot of the parts have already been purchased and its a matter of a bit of paint, cleaning up and some rewiring. The body is off the already 99% completed chassis. motor is a twin cam big valve, dual stromberg varity. 4 speed gearbox.

72mm2467R   Andrew Orourke   New York   As invoiced:
Last Updated: 4/10/14      USA   Vin Number: 74/2467R
         Date Built: mm/1972
         Date Invoiced: 7/6/1972
         Engine #: S27064
         Transmission #: 5 Speed
         Original color: L11 - Regency Red
         Condition:
         Current color: Red
         PO: Michael Colavito
         Good/restored

[Triton]

Is there any chance you could put the car on a ramp nearby ,that's if the seller would agree to it. I would not be too worried about oil leaks and untidy interior, it's any bad corrosion that is a problem. I am not a welder but i would imagine it would be dangerous on a fibre glass vehicle

[BDA]

I don't see any rust (unless I'm missing it). The thing that looks like rust in pictures 3, 4, and 5 is on the fiberglass body and could be red clay or some other dirt. I am curious about the spring that appears to be connected to the clutch release lever. It looks like it was added to return the clutch lever after declutching. If that's what it is, that shouldn't be necessary. There is a spring in the bell housing that should perform that function. Even if that is what it's for, I wouldn't be too concerned (as long as it does it's job) since I would guess that the spring in the bell housing could be replaced at a later time.

The "adjustable door hinges" are probably Banks (now Lotus Supplies) brass hinges. They allow you to take the door off and the only adjustment needed when you reinstall it is the height.

Your complete VIN is 72062467R (built in June 1972). The Bruce Elrick car apparently has the VIN 72062464R and the VIN in the "Remarks" section of the registry seems mistyped (taking the "Chassis Number" in the registry as correct). 

I didn't see any alarms in your pictures or description. Your next decision is whether it is worth $22,000 to you. I didn't realize it was a 5 speed. That helps.

Let us know what you do!

[EuropaTC]

overall looked like a good driver's car. 

From those shots I'd say you've nailed it pretty well.

It's a 1970's car and back then you could get in a ratty Lotus and be amazed at how well it felt compared with the average car of the day. But things have moved on and even shopping trolleys have good brakes/suspension/roadholding so if you're still impressed by this Lotus, I'd call it a good sign.

I'd still like to hear about engine work and as you mention a 5sp box, whether it's the Lotus 365 (?) or a later Renault NG3 conversion; not a deal breaker by any means but I'd just want to know what I was getting.

After that it's just down to if you think it's worth the money to you, and only you can answer that. As I said before I can't comment as I'm a continent away but if that were on sale here I'd say it's a good deal.

Brian

[MAK]

Here are the invoices for the work that was done in 2023, Station8Garage, Ruckersville, VA did the work, and they posted some of it on their Facebook Page
https://www.station8garage.com/
Below is a picture of them working on it

There are number of reels on STATION8GARAGE Facebook site, reels are 1k; 456;356;716.
I haven't been able to figure out how to save them to my computer

I am not familiar with this shop, I will look them up though, the shop I'd mostly use is https://www.gassmanautomotive.com/

The car is a 4 speed not a 5

[BDA]

I'm a little surprised that they didn't change the bearings while they had the engine apart. Usually these engines have so few miles on them that it wouldn't really warrant new bearings but then I wouldn't think that rings would be warranted either. That's not to say they did a poor job. They may have checked them and found them good. I guess it's sort of a style thing.

Obviously, the engine has been rebuilt in the past since it used 0.030 over rings. I don't think any of those are negatives.

The paint looks really good in the picture. Better than I expected. The wheels also look really good. I'd say it seems like a very good example. It appears to be well maintained and cared for. The shop found leaking valves that the previous shop missed so it appears that they are pretty observant. I would expect your motor to be in very good shape. Websites can be deceiving but they seem to be a good well established restoration shop.

EuropaTC mentioned the possibility that your 5-speed may be an NG3. If that's the case, it would not be a bad thing but given that the registry listed  your car as a 5-speed, I'd assume it's the standard 365 5-speed tranny which is also not a bad thing (and as long as your 5th gear is in good shape, I'd say it's a good thing). I can't tell from any of the pictures which you have.

As EuropaTC and I said, your next decision is if the car is worth $22,000 to you.

[EuropaTC]

I had to smile at the photo of the guy working on the car, that's pretty much how I do anything in the engine bay !

Also the paint looks better in that photo than the ones originally posted, I reckon I could live with that. From the owners viewpoint it's a bit of a shame that the two bills came inside 3 months of each other and both needed the head removing. That's life I suppose.

Guessing a bit, there's a comment about low compression being caused by 2 valves not seating. If that's why it went in, perhaps they decided to check the valves and rings and replace both to make sure they got it fixed. They must have seen the big end bearings when they did the rings and decided they were good enough to go again.

To be fair you've got some good history from the vendor, far more than most folks get unless they're buying a new restoration. It could make a good buy or at least at that price it would in the UK, something you could drive and improve or just maintain as you go along ?

Brian