Output shaft leaks and a bad memory

[jbcollier]

I try to keep a detailed log book as I have a poor memory for details. When I started as a mechanic, I remembered everything I ever did on every car I worked on. After 10 years, or so, that part of my brain filled up and exploded, scattering memory fragments everywhere. Now I have a vague idea I probably worked on such and such a car in the past but not quite exactly what I did or when. So, it’s not unusual to take something apart and find things I don’t remember having done. Which leads me to…

When I first did my transaxle, it leaked. I sure as heck wasn’t going to pull it out of the car so I came up with trimming down the fins to allow the seals to be changed from the outside. Did that and it still leaked, albeit a little bit less. And then, one day it stopped leaking. Level stayed up and the outside of the transaxle dry. I figured, correctly, that the seal run had not seated on the inner seal properly until one day’s enthusiastic driving did the trick. I run a twin link so no worries about shimming — more on this later.

While chasing vibration issues, I decided to get the half-shaft balance checked (all good). After that, it started leaking again, big time. So I pulled it apart and fit a new seal and o-ring on the one side. And I noticed some things…

- it was obvious that the seal run had popped back out. I was able to simply push it back in but decided to change the seal anyway. Grease on the end of the half-shaft had enough stiction to pull the seal run out thus leading to my leaking.

- trimming the seal nut fins is a damn good idea. Highly recommend it the next time you do the work. Turns a nightmare job into a synch.

- getting back to my poor memory, I found a square seal instead of an o-ring. So, I can categorically say that the square seals work very well. My other side is still dry. I fit an o-ring this time and I’ll report back on how it does. I used an aluminium tube to pop the seal run over the o-ring.

- twin link issues. Unlike with the stock set-up, there is nothing holding the seal run in place. The seal run has only a shallow space for the o-ring so it is possible for it to move out if there is room to do so. I have fit a sacrificial o-ring between the seal ring and half-shaft to help keep the seal ring in place. Probably it will just get munched and spat out but I’ll report back on how they survive.

That’s all, or, at least, all I can remember…

[Kendo]

John, do you have a photo of how exactly you trimmed the seal nuts? I am having trouble visualizing that.

[jbcollier]

No photo.  I crammed full the opening with a clean rag and used a dremel to trim the fins.  Wasn't hard to do.  If you have it apart, you could just chuck it in a lathe for a quick trim.

[Rosco5000]

This is a very timely post as I am struggling with my output shaft seals on my rebuilt 365. 

I have one question for you,  I have noticed in the literature that it calls for 1.75L of oil which does not fill me up to the filler hole at all.  Last time I filled up I went level with the filler hole.  I am wondering if I am too high in my oil level and that is causing me some issues.  I was closer to 3L of fluid to fill to the filler hole level.  Do you have any thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Ross

[jbcollier]

With the car level, fill so it drips lightly out the level plug.  I have a 395 which is similar to a 365 but has a smaller diff unit.  I used roughly 2.4 lites of oil to full.  With my output shaft seal-runs in place, I had no leaks so it wasn't overfilled.

Oil level is CRITICAL with the five speed transaxles.  5th gear is rotating on it's needle bearings in every other gear and it is located high at the rear, the first place to run dry as the oil level drops!  Lots of dead 365s from worn 5th gears due to low oil levels.  Parts are pure unobtainium.

[jbcollier]

PS: The service manuals lists the same fluid capacity for all the transaxles.  Obviously a mistake as the 5 speed has the large rear housing.

[Rosco5000]

Thanks JB. I was on that track but very frustrated by chasing the leak. I’ll give it another go with new seals again trying to identify where I went wrong.
Cheers,
Ross

[jbcollier]

6000 klicks later and the transaxle is full on the inside and dry on the outside.  The LHD output shaft seal run has a square ring and the RHD one has an o-ring.  Both seem to work just fine.  The only trick is to make sure the seal run pops over the o-ring/square seal.  I used a length of aluminium pipe.

[FourLoti]

Hi:

Reviving this thread in search of some updated help. I had mild leakage from both sides and ordered seals and rings from Ray. The rings came in the square variety. I noticed that they (maybe surprisingly) easily slipped over the sleeves on the workbench, but I assumed that once inserted into their grooves, the ID would shrink sufficiently for a tighter seal.

Next, when I reinserted the sleeves, I expected to have difficulty getting them through the rings, as explained in various threads, but there was hardly any resistance as far as I could tell. I first thought maybe what was happening was that they weren't fully seated and that more pressure was required, but I could not get them to go in farther.  The sealing ring nuts went back in with the proper number of turns (with Hylomar) and the drive shaft yokes also went fully into position for pinning. So I'm assuming there's no way the sleeves could still be outside of the o-ring area.

Everything seemed OK after that, but now with just a few more miles on the car, both sides are leaking a TON of lube, and it's coming from the center of the shafts, not the seal. The only thing that makes sense is that the square rings were indeed to large or too thin, to adequately seal around the sleeves.

I suppose I'm going to need to go back in but if anyone has any thoughts on what to check for this time I'd appreciate hearing. Also, if anyone else has had similar experience with the square rings - from R&D - or other sources, please let me know.

Finally, if the rings are the problem, I'd prefer to not have to pay shipping and wait for (hopefully more effective) rings. Has anyone found that suitable O-rings can be found at big box stores?

Thanks,

Ron

[jbcollier]

You’ll have to pull it down and see what’s up.  Times when mine was leaking enthusiastically were when the inner ring was not seated properly.

[FourLoti]

Well, I think I found the problem, but not sure why I have it. As seen in these videos, the new R&D square O-ring appears to have virtually no sealing power - as far as I can tell. Unless I'm way off on how I installed them?

I mentioned earlier that based on other accounts I expected to have to work hard to get the sleeve to seat on the ring, but yet felt no resistance. Just to make sure I'm not missing something, I took these videos and would greatly appreciate knowing if this is the way it's supposed to be. Then again, it's not supposed to be leaking heavily so, putting two and two together!!

Anyone have any similar experience with these parts? Or, better yet, any good experience with other available rings? In the meantime, I'm going out to look locally for a replacement, but am not too hopeful.

Thanks,

Ron

https://youtube.com/shorts/GxeEhfBK3iw

https://youtu.be/0-OutrJWWL0

[jbcollier]

Mine wasn’t particularly tight either but it sealed.  I coat mine in Permatex #3H gasket sealer.  Hylomar would work as well.  Given your grief, I would fit the o-rings — still coated with sealer.

[Fotog]

What does Ray at RD say?