Author Topic: Stromberg balance tube location  (Read 411 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Grumblebuns

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2012
  • Location: San Diego area
  • Posts: 1,531
Stromberg balance tube location
« on: Thursday,June 08, 2023, 10:16:22 AM »
Does anyone see any advantage to completely eliminating the stock intake secondary butterfly/ balance tube manifold? The PO did so with his very early TC and moved the balance tube to the cast intake on the head. It may have been a perceived performance gain back in the day but did really do anything. I can't think of any other reason. When I start working on this car, I will remove the mod and reinstall an aftermarket manifold/balance tube.

Secondly when the Hermes, Warneford, Else style manifolds and Webers are used on the Renault motors, why are balance tubes not needed for these cars; both have similar intake arrangements. as far as I can see.

Offline Bainford

  • Twin Cam 3682R
  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Jul 2012
  • Location: Nova Scotia
  • Posts: 1,718
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #1 on: Thursday,June 08, 2023, 10:58:23 AM »
In the set-up illustrated in your photo, is the resilient mounting of the carbs eliminated? Though I have no personal experience with this, I have read that mounting the carbs solidly to the manifold (or head) can result in a frothing of the fuel in the bowls that disrupts fuel delivery to the venturis.

There can be other dynamic benefits from a longer intake runner, such as a slight shifting of the torque curve towards the lower RMP range. But if that was not a specific design consideration with this manifold, it may be more of a hinderance than a help.

I like the idea of eliminating the manifold. It makes for a compact assembly, and reduced weight & complexity, all Lotus friendly notions. The fitting of a balance tube to the head, as in your photo, appears to be a great idea, though I'm sure you're wondering just how well thought out the mod is. Removing the manifold may serve to clean up the intake flow path, and may benefit high RMP running. I am curious to know, though, if there is an actual benefit of that set-up. For a road car application, I would think nudging the torque curve towards lower RMP, rather than higher RMP, would be the way to go.
The Twin Cam plays the symphony whilst my right foot conducts the orchestra. At 3800 rpm the Mad Pipe Organ joins in.

Trevor

Offline TurboFource

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Sep 2019
  • Location: Maryland
  • Posts: 2,180
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #2 on: Thursday,June 08, 2023, 12:17:23 PM »
I think PFREEN removed his....
The more I do the more I find I need to do....remember your ABC’s …anything but chinesium!

Offline cazman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Joined: Nov 2021
  • Location: Upstate NY
  • Posts: 259
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #3 on: Thursday,June 08, 2023, 04:40:54 PM »
I think that the further out the carbs are, the more cantilever there is and thus more "shake". Maybe moving them in eliminates the requirement for the o-ring isolator deal.
1973 Europa TCS

Offline Pfreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Joined: Apr 2016
  • Location: Orlando, Florida
  • Posts: 726
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #4 on: Thursday,June 08, 2023, 05:05:48 PM »
My car has a balance tube but I put it through the vent boss on the forward manifold leg of the head.  It is 1/2" hard copper tube jb weld epoxied in place.  It has been there for 25 years with no problems.

I know this is another of those sensitive subjects. But, I will opine. 
The balance tube does nothing at wide open throttle except rob horsepower due to restriction, if not done correctly.  At idle, it will essentially equalize or balance the manifold vacuum in each runner.  This can be done without a balance tube by careful synchronization of the carburetors. As reinforcement for this, someone just stated they didn't need a balance tube with a Weber carb. What is the difference between a dual throat carb and two carbs?  They both have two venturies  and throttle blades

My car originally had no balance tube when I bought it.  It has Hitachi SU carbs off of a 240z.  I added the balance tube when I ported the head to hopefully help the idle. I do not think  saw a difference on my engine with or without the balance tube.
 I do think a balance tube on the bottom of the manifold is a bad idea because fuel can pool there. 

The Hitachi SU carbs have the float bowel mounted in rubber to prevent frothing.  The Stromberg carbs don't have this feature.  However, my first car, a 1964 TR4 had Stromberg carbs.  It had no isolation as shown in this Moss illustration.  https://mossmotors.com/tri-014-tr4-4a-carburetors-zenith-stromberg

So, I would try it and see with no balance tube.  I cannot see how it would hurt the engine.  If you don't like how it runs, change it.
Removing that balance tube contraption Lotus did for emissions gives a lot more room for an air cleaner and stacks, saves weight and looks a lot better in imho.

Offline Grumblebuns

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Aug 2012
  • Location: San Diego area
  • Posts: 1,531
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #5 on: Friday,June 09, 2023, 06:06:43 PM »
Whenever I do a rebuild on this engine, I will probably keep some type of balance tube. It was most likely for emissions for the most part but from reading Tim Engel's detailed posting several years ago on the Yahoo Europa mail list, there appears to be some tuning advantage to having the balance tube in place. He doesn't address the effect of changing the relative position of the tube has on running condition. Also the European Stromberg Elans and Europas have a non emissions manifold with a high balance tube. This is the snippet of that section dated 2/2/2019.

Post by: Esprit2 » 02 Feb 2019 12:58 pm

lotusbzz, The integral Stromberg manifold connects the 1-2 intake ports to one carb, and the 3-4 ports to the other carb. Then the 1-3-4-2 firing order results in each carb receiving two consecutive intake pulses ('sucks') in a row, followed by a two-pulse rest period. Fuel is heavier than air, it has more inertia, and it takes it longer to respond to an intake pulse and get going. As a result, the first port in a pair will receive a relatively lean mixture. By the time the second pulse hits, the fuel will be moving better, so the second port gets a richer mixture than the first port. Then the rest period hits, it all comes to a stop, then starts over again when the next two-pulse hits that carb again. The firing order is 1-3-4-2, and it starts with '1' simply because that's the way our simple minds work. With the engine running continuously, you can jump into the sequence anywhere, and 1-3-4-2-1-3-4-2-1-3-4-2-1-3-4-2 can just as well be... 2-1, 3-4, 2-1, 3-4, 2-1, 3-4, 2-1, 3-4 or..., if L = Lean and R = Rich... L-R, L-R, L-R, L-R... on and on 2-1, 3-4, 2-1, 3-4... When you check the sparkplugs, have you ever noticed that two cylinders consistently appear to be running richer (black & sooty), while the other two appear leaner (cleaner, tan colored)? All the above is why. The balance tube connects the small plenum area that occurs where the two manifold runners join just before mating with the carb. And the balance tube adapter manifold enhances that plenum area a bit. The balance tube allows for a little cross-talking between the 1-2 and 3-4 pairs. Not a 'full flow', but enough vacuum reaches the resting carb from the active carb to keep 'some' flow going in the resting carb. That keeps the heavy fuel flowing a little bit. Not fully up to speed, but also not starting from stopped each time the next pair of intake pulses arrives. The balance tube has to be large enough in diameter to flow enough between the carbs to help, but small enough in volume to be able to reverse directions quickly... almost instantaly. There's complicated black art involved in balancing carb size, engine size (ie, suck pulse strength), plenum volume, balance tube diameter/ length/ volume, tube location (height), and a bunch of stuff. It looks simple, but it's very complex. For the Twin Cam, Lotus' High Balance Tube mounting adaptor seems to be the best. Go ahead, eliminate the mounting adaptor manifold with it's high balance tube. Then notice how crappy the engine runs without it. Try re-tuning the carbs to improve the situation, and you'll find there's always a conflict between the two ports in a pair. Get #2 rich enough to run half-way decent, and #1 is way too rich... fowled-plug rich. Lean out #1 to where it wants to be, and #2 is so lean it barely runs/ burns valves. Same with the 3-4 pair. The Balance Tube Mounting Adaptor doesn't totally eliminate the problem... that's an unrealistic expectation. But it DOES improve the situation to the point that the engine runs fairly well, if not a 'little' rough at idle. There's still a difference in plug colors in each pair... but to a far less degree. * Acceptably manageable with the balance tube adaptor. * Problematic without it.


« Last Edit: Friday,June 09, 2023, 06:30:48 PM by Grumblebuns »

Offline jbcollier

  • Super Member
  • *******
  • Joined: Nov 2013
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Posts: 5,979
Re: Stromberg balance tube location
« Reply #6 on: Friday,June 09, 2023, 07:22:53 PM »
I would make up spacers to take the place of the removed stock set-up.  This will helpfully enhance low end torque.  Balance tubes also help 4 cylinder engines with the lower end torque and smoothness and do not harm the upper end of done properly.

Flexible mounting of the carb is essential !!