Author Topic: Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread  (Read 296 times)

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Offline Bryan Boyle

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Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread
« on: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 07:14:35 AM »
 
  A bead or an even smear turn out to be the same. I've tried it.

    If you're going to us synthetic oil, you might want to use Permatex gasket goo specially formulated for synthetic oil (https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/speciality-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-synthetic-gasket-maker-3-5-oz/). I recently replaced my oil pan gaskets and the front and rear cork seals were the correct length. Be very careful not to over tighten your oil pan bolts. It's very easy to squish the gasket and break it. I believe rd enterprises sells an updated pan gasket set that has rubber (or something) impregnated gaskets. I don't remember where I saw that but if that's true, you might want to check into them (or maybe that's what you've got already!).

    I have to admit that I haven't driven my car or started the motor since I replaced my gaskets and I did squish my gaskkets a place or three so there's a possibility that it will leak just as bad as it had been. I sure hope not because getting to the pan gasket is a HUGE job with the headers I have.

    If you go to youtube and see Permatex videos of their gasket makers, they say they don't need gaskets (obviously, we would still need the front and rear cork gaskets but I guess they say that we wouldn't need gaskets for the rails). I take them at their word but I just felt more comfortable using a gasket.

These things were designed to use gaskets...so...makes sense to do so.  Will check out the permatex link...some have said adhere the rails to the block and the front/rear seals to the pan and offer up...I'm thinking adhere both to the pan, and after it's flashed off, coat the block and front and rear seal landing area and offer it up that way.  That's how I did the valve cover and except for a couple of the selocs leaking, the valve cover is dry along the seam.

Ray sells impregnated cork...so I think I'll be ok there...picked up a kit back in March/April and they're relatively fresh, so shouldn't be (he says, smiling) brittle, but your point is well taken about not honking down on them...just enough to compress but not collapse.

I have a couple cases of Brad Penn 20w-50 that was made with the original Kendall formulation (and is PA crude...) with enough ZN/P to keep the rubbing parts happy (and the bottle specifies that it is NOT for catalytic converter equipped engines..) and even pours out green like the original did...the car's been running on non-synthetic, so, I'll keep going down that road for now.  Right now, the sump has Castrol 20w-50 in it with a dose of STP (to get the metal anti-wear ZN/P added) and don't have any mayonaise under the oil cap, so thinking that, minor weep at the back of the head gasket in front of the alternator pulley notwithstanding, the coolant and oil is still staying where it belongs.  Will deal with that at some point; it's a matter of wiping it clean every so often.

Now, as for all the stock bits that have to come off just to get the oil pan free...well...spending a bit of time on the floor under the beast is part of the fun, right?  But, I have all the manifold bolts freed up (just shot them with another dose of Deep Creep again this evening Just To Make Sure (tm)) and have a couple sawzall metal cutting blades at the ready since the manifold to down pipe bolts are truly frozen so thinking that the OEM downpipe will be sacrificed to the Lotus deities...but that's ok...will try and salvage the cast manifold and muffler at least for someone else along the way.

Noted that the center heim in the shift is real free, but not a noticable amount of play.  Thinking somewhere down the road, that whole nightmare will have to be addressed, but, I can get all gears, and it's been well lubed by the oil leak, so, will watch it (I know that the UK suppliers have the original style universal joint vs what RD and others are selling on this side of the pond...the OEM just seems to be a bit more sturdy than that smaller assembly some are using...) and address when I need to.  First things first; can't fix everything all at once...incremental improvement so I can enjoy the ride in between repair sessions!
« Last Edit: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 07:18:45 AM by Bryan Boyle »
Bryan Boyle
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 07:16:09 AM »
    I was going to say to goop the end pieces first but I don’t remember which goes first (I think the rails go first, now!) but when you test fit, you’ll see which goes first, it will be obvious. Just make sure you goop everything, especially the corners where the rails meet the cork end pieces. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you!

    JB says that with the cams running in a “puddle” of oil, that ZDDP is not critical as it is for splash lubed cams. I think that makes sense, still it doesn’t hurt to be over cautious.

I was discussing the second point with a buddy of mine who is a lubrication scientist (I know, arguing from authority, right, but this guy has a few patents for additives to basestocks for a major petrochemical company...so I tend to listen...name not important) and his opinion, based on some of the work he's done is that in the 'hydrodynamic' lubrication arena (think of the crank or cam journals, where the rotating mass is rotating in a pressurized cushion, as you will, of the oil),  friction additives such as ZDDP contribute little (except at the moment of start where there is no oil pressure and the rotation is being lubed by residual oil for a second until the pressure builds up) to the effectiveness, but where you have actual possibility of metal to metal contact (boundary layer lubrication) as in cam lobes, cylinder walls, valve stems, etc, that in older metallurgy engines, *some* sacrificial lube additives (ZDDP among them, even TCP Tricresyl Phosphate) can be beneficial.

Admittedly, in our low-usage, limited mileage engines (discounting the folks who are still and yet racing...but thinking that the mills in the rear are vastly different than what Harry Mundy originally designed), the rate of wear because of the lack of ZDDP or other contemporary additives is less apparent over time, but it's still happening.  Hence folks like Brad Penn, Castrol, and others have come out with oils for 'classic' engines.

More damaging than using an SN or SP rated oil (ours were built during the time when SE was considered current) is NOT driving the darn things to get up to temperature and boil off the water and other products of combustion that are a result of blow-by (there is always some...) and fuel contamination that always mixes in the oil.  THAT ruins more engines than mileage.  Seals dry out (there are seal conditioners in oil), flash rust forms on exposed surfaces (the parts of the cam that are not resting in that oil puddle on top of the tappets), and water condenses on the crankcase...not using may be keeping the odometer low...but it's really not doing the engine any favors.

Lubrication science is a fascinating subject; that bottle of liquid we pour into the filler has a big job to do besides just making things slick...and specific additives are used to allow it to do the multiple jobs we require.  When I worked for a petro company, it was fascinating to sit at the table in the cafeteria and just listen to the scientists talk about their research every day...me, a lowly IT network wonk...but they patiently answered my elementary questions without rancor...;)

Sorry to go all pedant...an on-going religious war when it comes to gear (petrol) heads when 2 or 3 get together.  My feeling is use the best you can find that matches the mechanical technology it's being used for, run the damn things up to temperature whenever you can, and change it regularly.  Heck, even my airplane gets an oil and filter change every 25 hours, which translates to 3000 miles roughly.  But then the consequences of mechanical issues at 5000' are a bit different, no?   
« Last Edit: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 07:18:30 AM by Bryan Boyle »
Bryan Boyle
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Exhaust Out
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 02:10:34 PM »
Got it out, but not without liberal application of PB Blaster, tailpipe cutter, angle grinding, and colorful anglo-saxon metaphors.  Invented a couple new ones along the way... ;D  Some pieces came apart (like the inlet pipe to the muffler which had been braised on as a repair) just by handling them, others by angle grinder persuasion (don't have a blue wrench, and with the amount of oil residue under there, probably not the best thing, and half the studs backed out of the head, but I have replacements (and a stud extractor/inserter) so may just do them all while I'm in the area.  Have new metal/fiber exhaust gaskets, new brass nuts and a selection of the proper studs...so it should go back nicely (yeah, right?  Nothing is straight-forward on these beasts...)

Only thing usable is the cast manifold, the rest I'll dump in the metal recycle bin. 

Tomorrow's circus: remove the intermediate shift mechanism mount, starter, bell housing closure plate...and drop the pan.  It's already been drained...and then start to clean up, repaint, reseal, and hopefully get it all back together.  If not...will drag the pan down to NJ with me to the airport and give it a good washing in the varsol tub and paint there and bring back in a couple weeks. Not like there's a show to go to, and taking my time resurrecting this beast.
« Last Edit: Tuesday,August 16, 2022, 02:13:59 PM by Bryan Boyle »
Bryan Boyle
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Re: Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread
« Reply #3 on: Friday,August 19, 2022, 10:56:34 AM »
Wish me luck...just the exhaust system (new studs for manifold, brass nuts, gaskets), clutch cable in its new, engine-attached mount (remember when this started a week ago????), and shift mechanism to go.  That should take most of the day tomorrow, right?  Engine's sat more than overnight, and checked the nip on the pan bolts, all seem as tight as I want to make them   Pan filled with 4.5 US Quarts of VR-1 20w-50 oil.  Get everything buttoned up...start the bad boy and let it run for a while and see if I'm spilling oil out of the freshly gasketed oil pan.  If not...take around the block and see if I leave a trail of oil spots on the driveway. 

We'll see.  Not convinced I got all the i's dotted and t's crossed.  Or maybe made more out of it than necessary.  Better to be overprepared and underwhelmed than underprepared and overwhelmed.
Bryan Boyle
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread
« Reply #4 on: Friday,August 19, 2022, 12:22:52 PM »
"in our low-usage, limited mileage engines".
What? I intend to use my S2 almost daily!
I will skip snow and heavy rain days but otherwise intend to put a lot of miles on it.

Offline Bryan Boyle

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Re: Ongoing 3291R Renovation Oil Pan, Lubes, was Clutch Judder thread
« Reply #5 on: Saturday,August 20, 2022, 05:55:18 PM »
"in our low-usage, limited mileage engines".
What? I intend to use my S2 almost daily!
I will skip snow and heavy rain days but otherwise intend to put a lot of miles on it.

Good for you!  They were meant to be driven! 

Though, to be honest...took mine out for a shakedown cruise this afternoon after all the work I did this week...and it was toasty even with the windows down and the vent fan on...don't know whether I'd want to be dressed for a business meeting in a suit and arrive all sweated up!
Bryan Boyle
Morrisville PA
Commercial Pilot/CFII/FAA Safety Team
Amateur Extra Class Operator & FCC Volunteer Examiner
Currently working on 3291R, ex 444R, 693R, 65/2163, 004R, 65/2678
http://www.lotuseuropa.us for mirror of lotus-europa.com manual site.