How much work in changing to an NG3 box for my TCS

[HoraceM22]

Hi all, I have a restored 74 TCS.  I have paperwork showing the standard gearbox was serviced a few thousand miles ago, but although the linkage is a banks part and free moving in itself, the gearchage is incredibly stiff and coming down from 5th to 4th is still occasionally a bit of "hit and hope". If an NG3 box was available (which I'm told is very unlikely) how much work is it to swap? I will be doing an engine rebuild over the winter.
Also, after talking to a member of the Renault Owners Club at the Classic Car Show last weekend he told me that these boxes were fitted to quite a few models in the UK. Not that that means there will be many, if any, available. Can any of you out there offer any info on this please?
H.

[BDA]

I got my NG3 from Richard at Banks. It came with raw materials to make the shift linkage and fabricated rear tranny mounts. When it didn't seem like it would fit, I called Richard and he sent me a 336 rear hoop. After having that welded in it was a matter of positioning the tranny up to the rear hoop to drill holes to accept the steel tubes that carry the bolts for holing the tranny and welding them in. As you can see in the attached pictures, it appears that the rear tranny mounts were designed for the 336 rear hoop however, I am sure I have seen at least one Europa with an NG3 in a 352/336 frame. The rear hoop had to be flattened in one place for it to fit. I don't know if that guy used Banks' rear tranny mounts or not. It could be that the rear mounts would fit the holes in the 352/365 rear hoop and I would take that as a great coincidence!

If you do not go with a cable shifter, with the motor out you would need to fasten a pivot to the left side of the frame similar to what was done on the S2. and fabricate a similar shift linkage to the S2. I've attached pictures that show the rear of my linkage. I believe Lotus Supplies still sells parts for the linkage.

According to my NG gearbox manual, the NG3 was used for the Renault 18, 20, 30, and Fuego. The NG gearbox manual can be found here (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals - look for "Renault NG Gearbox Workshop Manual). It includes information about other NGx boxes that may also be appropriate. Additional information on NGx gear boxes are found in another NG gearbox manual (http://lotus-europa.com/manuals - look in the "Transmission" section for "NG Series Gearbox Manual"). Everybody on this forum should bookmark http://lotus-europa.com/manuals.

Additionally, there is a web page that explains fitting an NG3 to a Europa. Some of the mods to the NG3 were done at Banks before my NG3 was sent to me. I don't think I did anything special to the bell housing as described in this page but you might want to do it to be safe. (https://www.greytower.com/jon/lotus/europa/gearbox/gearbox.html)

I hope that helps!

edit: a coupld of my pictures didn't get posted for some reason.

[Lotuswins]

H,

It is a considerable amount of work IMHO.  The NG3 has no spigot bearing so you either change the input shaft or you put a bearing to support it in the bell housing (requires welding aluminum).  The NG3 is a side shifter, so a new linkage needs to be fabricated, either cable or S2/early TC style.  The axle shafts are for CV joints so must be changed to the 336/352/365 type.  The gear ratio's are generally taller so you won't have the close ratio feel any longer. 

I would recommend just repairing the shifting issue rather than tackling this effort as you won't gain much if anything.

Jerry Rude
4005R

[Dilkris]

I am on "Lotuswins's" team on this one H - stay with what you have and identify shifting problem.   
Is your box stiff in all gears or predominantly the change from 5th to 4th?
Out of interest is the gear change stiff from 4th to 5th?

[HoraceM22]

I am on "Lotuswins's" team on this one H - stay with what you have and identify shifting problem.   
Is your box stiff in all gears or predominantly the change from 5th to 4th?
Out of interest is the gear change stiff from 4th to 5th?

Yes this does seem like a lot of work for something that does actually work OK most of the time, especially on upshifts.

The box is very stiff on all changes, quite precise but very stiff. When dropping down from 5th to 4th, if you go 5th .... neutral .... 4th it usually goes in OK, but if you try going quickly straight down into 4th, it seems as thought it hasn't gone through the gate into the 3rd/4th plane and you're trying to go where there is nowhere to go - a bit embarrassing when you are taking a paying passenger out on a charity ride.
I know this will sound like I can't actually drive my own car, and there probably is some of that I'll admit. When I first had it I took it to one of our Specialists for their expert opinion, expecting them to say "it's a load of "You-know-what" " but as he got out and came to me he said "Actually, it's one of the best I've driven" which deflated me quite a bit.
I suppose that I'll have to re-learn double de-clutching all over again and just take things a bit slower and get my down shifts sorted well in advance?

Thanks for these answers, I was hoping that after eventually finding a 'box it would be just a question of fitting it and adjusting the linkage a bit, but from what you guys have said it's so much more than that.
Ok now onto the next bit, rebuilding the engine!
H.

[Bryan Boyle]

I am on "Lotuswins's" team on this one H - stay with what you have and identify shifting problem.   
Is your box stiff in all gears or predominantly the change from 5th to 4th?
Out of interest is the gear change stiff from 4th to 5th?

Yes this does seem like a lot of work for something that does actually work OK most of the time, especially on upshifts.

The box is very stiff on all changes, quite precise but very stiff. When dropping down from 5th to 4th, if you go 5th .... neutral .... 4th it usually goes in OK, but if you try going quickly straight down into 4th, it seems as thought it hasn't gone through the gate into the 3rd/4th plane and you're trying to go where there is nowhere to go - a bit embarrassing when you are taking a paying passenger out on a charity ride.
I know this will sound like I can't actually drive my own car, and there probably is some of that I'll admit. When I first had it I took it to one of our Specialists for their expert opinion, expecting them to say "it's a load of "You-know-what" " but as he got out and came to me he said "Actually, it's one of the best I've driven" which deflated me quite a bit.
I suppose that I'll have to re-learn double de-clutching all over again and just take things a bit slower and get my down shifts sorted well in advance?

Thanks for these answers, I was hoping that after eventually finding a 'box it would be just a question of fitting it and adjusting the linkage a bit, but from what you guys have said it's so much more than that.
Ok now onto the next bit, rebuilding the engine!
H.

I have found that, all things being equal, if your top hat bushings at the base of the shift lever, any intermediate heim joints/rod ends, rubber bushings are in good nick, and the whole mechanism is adjusted as per the manual, then using deliberate movement of the shift lever through the cross-gate pattern (ie not 'diagonally' per se from 2->3, 4->5 or the reverse but 2->N->3 etc) works best, along with being cognizant that you've got 8' or so between your hand and the tranny mechanism.  There's lots of mass to move in the right direction, so give it a chance to.  It will NEVER be the snick-snick of the Elan box, but, precise movement (just takes a little practice) works pretty well, and you can get decent, reliable shifts out of her 99% of the time.

That, and like most things Lotus, a gentle, precise hand on the knob seems to work best.  I watch some of the online videos of testers grabbing and moving the shift lever like they're trying to stir concrete with a butter knife...easy on the equipment, guys.  Things last longer and stay in adjustment when you respect the limitations!  I can shift up with just my palm...and down with 2 fingers.  It doesn't take much when the mechanism is adjusted properly and the bits are up to snuff.

HTH

[BDA]

Just to add a little to Bryan's post, I have recently thought about implementing a Ferrari style gate for my shift lever. I think in my case, sometimes when I think I'm pulling the lever straight back or strait up, I'm not really. When I first put my car on the road I would have trouble doing a 1 - 2 shift so I had to train myself to put a little pressure to the left as I did that shift. Lately I've sometimes had occasional trouble finding 3 when coming from 4. Again, I think it's that I'm not pushing the lever straight enough.

I agree with Bryan's assessment that shifts should be easy - palm or fingers.

[jbcollier]

The reasons to go for an NG3 are that: you've blown up your 365 and the required parts are pure unobtainium, or you don't have a five speed and want one.  The NG3 ratios are not good, first is often ridiculously low.  There is no difference in shifting between a 365 and an NG3 unless you also change the linkage.

Back to your problem -- though first you should bow down and thank the gods you have a 365 in good shape!  There are things you can do to improve the shifting on a 365.  First, disconnect the linkage from the transaxle and go through every joint and pivot looking for ones that are too stiff or too loose.  Next, is a bit more involved.  Remove the stock rube-goldberg external detent system and fit a reverse lock out at the shifter and add the missing Renault factory 5th gear detent spring and ball.  This greatly improves shifting as it takes out all the guess work.

[Bainford]

 When I first had it I took it to one of our Specialists for their expert opinion, expecting them to say "it's a load of "You-know-what" " but as he got out and came to me he said "Actually, it's one of the best I've driven" which deflated me quite a bit.
I suppose that I'll have to re-learn double de-clutching all over again and just take things a bit slower and get my down shifts sorted well in advance?

H.

When I first started driving my TSC 5-speed, I found the downshifts 'stiff' relative to the modern transmissions I had been driving, though I eventually found that they are 'slow' rather then 'stiff'. I adjusted my shifting technique accordingly, but with increased sympathy for those old synchros, I started double-clutching my downshifts. What a difference. When I get it right, the stick just falls quickly into the lower gear, completely free of resistance. Very satisfying. Some heel & toe, double-clutch downshifting can be awkward at first, but with practice the technique improves and soon becomes second-nature. It takes most of the load off the synchros, extending the life of the delicate and valuable 365 transmission while at the same time developing a time-honoured element of proper, vintage sports car driving. Plus, it amazes your friends and impresses women.