brakes

[JNS]

I have just installed my refurbished brake servo, (the seals had gone & it was full of brake fluid).
I have bled all four corners (the fluid pumps out ok). Everything is tightened up but the brake pedal is just going to the floor, I can see no leaks anywhere.  I am thinking the master cylinder has failed.
 Can I ask what others think? 
 (and is it an easy job)?
 Jeff

[BERNIEHUMBER]

HI:
Bend up a jumper section of brake line and take the servo unit out of the circuit and see what happens.
I did this before on another car and it did turn out to be the MC.
Good luck.

[4129R]

The hardest part of replacing the MC is getting the two pipe connections threaded when you put it back together.

The last one I did recently, I had to start the threads with the MC not bolted into position.

Getting the pin off and back on the pedal yoke down the tunnel is fiddly to say the least.

[EuropaTC]

Hi Jeff,

I'll start off by assuming as you're in the UK you have the single circuit master cylinder ?  If so, then replacing it with another isn't that difficult but you do need good access from underneath the car and it's easier if you remove the closing plate between the chassis and front bodywork. Trying to do it with that sheet of steel in place is possible but just makes life harder because it's quite close to the steering rack.

Before changing the M/C it's worth checking that you have got all the air out of the system. On the Europa, even single circuit, you have a lot of brake pipe and it's going from low-high-low again, so getting all the air out isn't always easy. If you have a pressure bleeder or a helper then it's ok, but single handed it can be tiresome.

Some folks do a "bench bleed" on the master cylinder before fitting it. As yours is on the car that's not an option (and I've never bothered with the single circuit one either) but you could ensure the M/C is air free by removing the feed to the servo at the servo end and bleeding through. That's higher than the M/C so you should get air bubbles out fairly easily.
 
If you've still got no pedal or improvement after that then personally I'd start from the M/C and trace through. Remove the outlet and drop in a bleed nipple which means the only thing in the system is the M/C and it's seals. If you can't get that rock solid with the bleed nipple or you are seeing fluid loss  then I'd just replace it. You can rebuild, but the single circuit ones are so cheap it's not worth the effort.

If the M/C checks out solid with no leaks then I'd go through the system one connection at a time. Unconventionally I'd ensure the servo is bubble free by cracking the outlet connection with the system under pressure (with a rag around it to catch the fluid) and after that it's just plodding round until you find where the air is trapped.

I'm sure many of us have struggled to get a solid brake pedal at some point so don't get too down about it. I've certainly had problems, sometimes the job goes perfectly, sometimes I'm at it for a day or more.

cheers
Brian

[JNS]

Thanks for the advice.
 I think I may replace the Master cylinder anyway, for peace of mind. I've had the car over 20 years and and never replaced it. It could be very old.
 I will remove the closing plate as suggested. Does anyone know if the 3 bolts that hold it on to the chassis are captive bolts? (please say yes!).
Jeff

[EuropaTC]

I will remove the closing plate as suggested. Does anyone know if the 3 bolts that hold it on to the chassis are captive bolts? (please say yes!).

YES 

If they've not been moved in a long time then maybe some penetrating oil a day before you start isn't a bad idea, you don't want to shear them off.   You might also want to consider removing the front grille because then it's very easy to reach in and get to the bolts mounting the front of the tray.  I have my grille with some little stainless brackets at the bottom and black cable ties at the top. Holds it nicely in place but a couple of snips and it folds inwards to give clear access to the lower front chamber.....   whether or not it's worth the effort depends how much tinkering you plan on doing !

But with the tray off it makes working on brakes/steering rack very easy. You can do all the jobs without removing it, but you'll cuss more 

Brian

[JNS]

Thanks everyone. Good advice.
 I've managed to get the pedal to go hard, but there is about 3 inches of movement (measured at the top of the pedal) before this happens. Is this normal?
Jeff

[buzzer]

Are the rear brake shoes adjusted up? If not this could be giving you a long pedal travel

[EuropaTC]

It sounds a bit much to me but I don't have standard brakes any more. 3" must be nearly on the carpet ?   I can't recall how much travel I had with the disk/drum setup  but as a guess I'd expect 2" or better ?  I just had a look through my notes and with a 0.7" tandem m/c I had roughly 4cm (1.5"-ish) of movement, but that's disc/disc.  I can't imagine rear drums would be a great deal different if they're adjusted properly.

If it's any consolation, I've spent a lot of time chasing air out of these brakes to get a really hard pedal.

Brian

[JNS]

 The rear brakes are adjusted so I can just feel them start to scrape slightly as I rotate the wheel.  The pedal is still a way off the bulkhead when it stops.
I'll do a test drive tomorrow and maybe some more brake bleeding.
 Thanks.

[jbcollier]

First release the e-brake completely.  Then turn the rear adjusters up until the wheel locks.  Back off until it is just free.

Stopping adjusting at light scraping may be too loose as a shoe may not be centred.  Adjusting until the wheel is locked ensures the shoes are centred.

[JNS]

Thanks everyone. Ajusted the rears again and went for a test drive. Brake pedal seems fine, although I think I will still replace the master cylinder.
Jeff