Author Topic: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS  (Read 844 times)

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Offline kram350kram

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Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« on: Saturday,August 14, 2021, 06:34:44 PM »
Anyone know the fore/aft location of the stock chassis with engine installed ? Thanks

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #1 on: Saturday,August 14, 2021, 07:51:14 PM »
You need to weigh each end, then Math.
There are on-line calculators supplied by two-post lift companies.

Offline 4129R

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #2 on: Sunday,August 15, 2021, 12:38:26 AM »
The centre of the engine block would seem to be the centre of gravity without any driver or passenger, and low fuel load.

Then it would depend on weight and location of anyone inside the car, and the amount of fuel in the tanks. 

Offline Richard48Y

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #3 on: Sunday,August 15, 2021, 10:01:48 AM »
The centre of the engine block would seem to be the centre of gravity without any driver or passenger, and low fuel load.

Then it would depend on weight and location of anyone inside the car, and the amount of fuel in the tanks.

I have to disagree with this.
I am sure it is a point somewhere forward of the engine, perhaps at the rear bulkhead back of the seats.
I know that on my front engine cars it typically ends up at the rear of the wing window.
Weighing and calculating will yield the correct answer.
And naturally subject to change if components are removed.
Critical to have this right if the car is to be put on a lift.

Offline 4129R

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #4 on: Sunday,August 15, 2021, 10:11:25 AM »
The weight of the car less engine and gearbox is roughly equal front and rear as the brakes F/R are similar, the fibreglass similar, and the chassis C of G is about below the hole in the tunnel.

Add 200kg of engine and gearbox starter, alternator etc and the C of G  empty must be close to the water pump. 


Offline Dilkris

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #5 on: Sunday,August 15, 2021, 10:53:21 PM »
Anyone know the fore/aft location of the stock chassis with engine installed ? Thanks
Can't help you with an answer but out of interest why do you want to know?

Offline kram350kram

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #6 on: Monday,August 16, 2021, 06:05:10 PM »
Just doing a little engine swap. Just looking for past experience and data.

Offline Clifton

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday,August 17, 2021, 04:54:29 AM »
I don't have CG data but experience. I used a V6. I place the engine as far forward with a safe CV angle that was 7 degrees. I ended up at 38/62% distribution loaded on Longcare scales. I never checked for CG. I just needed the distribution for brake and springs setup.

Offline kram350kram

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday,August 17, 2021, 05:54:39 AM »
Thanks Clifton, How does the car handle at speed? Did you change the caster angle to get more weight on the front end? 

Offline Clifton

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday,August 17, 2021, 12:49:49 PM »
Increasing caster doesn't put more weight on the front end but I increased the caster as much as I could.   I pressed the bushings out a little on the arms to offset them and shimmed with 12mm washers, better fit than 1/2". I made shims for the upper ball joint and used washers for spacers on the bottom for the shock. I am a little under 3*. I wish I could get 5 or 6 but you can only get so much with the trunions. Initially it was darty at 65mph with what I set the toe at. I reduced the front and increased the rear toe. Basically an Elise alignment. It is one hand stable at any speed. It is hard to stay under 90 on the freeway.

I'll give you tmi as you are going to end up more tail heavy than stock too.. I don't know what your intentions are when finished, track or just a fun weekend car but I wouldn't worry too much about the weight balance unless you are building a competitive car that pays. I've read an S2 Europa is 45/55. Some say 40/60 to 42/58 is perfect. A Porsche GT3 RS is 39/61. A Lotus Elise is 38/62.  I think I am 36/64 with no one in the car, I would have to check my notes. I used the 38/62 for brake set up and springs as my wife is my partner in crime and is always in the car with me so the weight is a constant. If you end up too tail heavy, set it up with a little more understeer and never fully lift going into a turn. Start slower and get used to keeping on the pedal after you brake. I did my springs based on weight and ended up making an adjustable 7/8" front bar for a little more push.  I run a 205 tire front and 245 tire rear. My rear track is a little wider than a stock Europa too.  On an autocross coarse it now has a little low speed push. It will only oversteer if I fully lift in a turn. It would be faster with less push but it's not worth the risk for me.

Torque wise you will probably be about the same as mine. I wouldn't want any less weight on my rear. Traction with regular Europa sized tires and the short wheel base is imo not the safest. Look into 200 tread wear tires when the time comes. The 200's are designed for the SCCA autocross minimum tread wear and have the best cold grip other than a Hoosier A7. R88R's (100tw) if your are on 13's.

Offline Pfreen

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday,August 17, 2021, 01:14:54 PM »
I have some scales and weighed my tcs and literary' tcs.  My car is 42.1%f 57.9%r with no driver and 43.2%f 56.8%r with me in it at 205 lbs.

Wesley's distribution is almost the same with no driver and I never weighed it with him in it.

For reference, my car is 1610 pounds and his is 1527 lbs.  My car has ac so this accounts for the difference.

Offline kram350kram

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday,August 17, 2021, 07:34:35 PM »
Thanks Clifton. Not to much TMI. Perfect info. The more info, the better.  The amount of any added weight with more positive caster is minimal but with the kingpin angle inclined positive you will get some, just enough to keep the steering steady at speed. I was thinking of cutting the chassis upper A-arm pivot thru tube shorter at the front and adding washers at the rear, basically just moving the upper A-arm back some, but as you say the trunion is an issue . What toe settings are you using and how about camber? Thanks for any info.

Offline Clifton

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday,August 18, 2021, 03:52:43 PM »
Going off memory, I can look through my notes. PM me when you get closer and I will verify.  I am 1/16" total toe in in front. 1/8" toe in rear. .75* camber front, .8-.9* rear. My rear suspension is not Europa so my rear camber is specific and works with my camber curve. My front arms are slotted for camber too.

I thought about using a different spindle that has a lower ball joint and 4x100 hub as that's what I'm running  but I already have a Wilwood brake set up in the front and didn't wanted to start over. It works with the caster it has but more would feel better more.  My camber is based on tire temps with the tires I'm using. If I didn't autocross I would run less camber.

S2's have similar weight and weight distribution as what you will have.

https://wiki.seloc.org/a/Geo_Setups

Offline dakazman

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Re: Center of Gravity 1974 TCS
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday,August 18, 2021, 04:34:19 PM »
  I can’t wait to weigh mine😄.
                     to start mine.
                        to finish mine.
                          to drive mine.
      Being 108f feels like temp,  I have moved inside to stay alive.
Dakazman